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Toyota Camry cheaper to fuel than a Tesla Model 3?
- exhilaration 7y agoI'm not sure who's right but these guys say the Tesla is cheaper to own overall: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/27/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-camry-5-year-cost-to-own/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/27/tesla-model-3-vs-toyota...
- onlyrealcuzzo 7y agoI'm skeptical of the resale estimate 5 years into the future. What percentage of Teslas are older than 5 years? Like 1%? What's the oldest model 3? Like 3 years? I'm sure there's enough car sales that even with a small-ish sample size they can make pretty good predictions, even for a new make & model. But I'll be surprised if the Model 3 estimate turns out to be as accurate as the Camry.
- Fjolsvith 7y agoBut when you add a Powerwall and Solar Roof, the numbers swing the other way over time. Besides, I'm sure the maintenance on a Camry costs much more than the maintenance on a Tesla.
- beart 7y agoWhy are you sure of that? How much do batteries cost to replace? What is the mark up on a Tesla shop for parts and labor and how does that compare to a Toyota dealer?
- Fjolsvith 7y ago> Why are you sure of that? Because there are about 17 moving parts in a Tesla: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/model-s-vs-ice-how-many-moving-parts https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/model-s-vs-ice-how-man... Edit: Including the brakes.
- pfdietz 7y agoIt's turning out the batteries cost nothing to replace, as they are outliving the cars. Let's talk about the cost of oil changes, engine tuneups, spark plugs, mufflers/exhaust, brake pads and rotors.
- pwinnski 7y agoDo Teslas not have brakes? Or do they use disc brakes?
- Jamwinner 7y agoThey have 4 wheel disc iirc. The only positive is that with regen, they use them less, but still more than I do engine braking with a manual transmission.
- pwinnski 7y agoHaving previously driven a Prius and now a Fiat 500e, I definitely see that brakes undergo much, much less wear when regenerative braking is in play. Still, brakes requiring maintenance less often doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of the list that doesn't require maintenance ever.
- pfdietz 7y agoSure it fits. It's a list of places you will have lower costs.
- pwinnski 7y agoI'm glad you don't write for Sesame Street.
- pwinnski 7y agoSince you don't like my reference to the "one of these things just doesn't belong" song, consider this: My Toyota Prius put as much wear on the brakes as a Tesla or my Fiat 500e, despite being a car with an ICE. There are many, many, many hybrids on the road that similarly us regenerative braking despite burning gasoline. So in every sense, the reference to brakes does not belong in that list.
- luxuryballs 7y agoHow much is a solar roof and powerwall, parts and install labor?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sabertoothed 7y agoPlease don't share seekingalpha articles. The site is known for poor-quality articles and highly biased authors.
- JohnJamesRambo 7y agoCan you refute the math?
- sabertoothed 7y agoThe problem isn't the pure math. It's the assumptions and conclusions.
- JohnJamesRambo 7y agoBut you are doing the textbook version of ad hominem. We want to know if what they are saying is correct and math can tell us. We don’t need more. >a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive...
- sabertoothed 7y agoI think you are not being intellectually honest here. The headline is "Electricity Shock: Toyota Camry Cheaper To Fuel Than A Tesla Model 3". Then the author assumes the Tesla will always be charged at an (expensive) supercharger. The math checks out (as in: I assume the simple calculations are not incorrect). The author's assumptions/conclusions do not check out. And do not back up the sensationalist (and incorrect) headline. My comment was not ad hominem. Not only because I did not attack a human.
- gameswithgo 7y agoyes. people don’t charge their teslas primarily at supercharging stations.
- hokkos 7y ago
- cevn 7y ago> For fuel prices, I'm using today’s nationwide average gasoline price of $2.59 per gallon and $0.28 per kWh that Tesla charges at its Supercharger stations. OK, but you could use a more accurate number, the price people pay at their homes (Most rarely supercharge). A quick google shows thats 12c per hour in the US (I pay 8 cents.) Starting with "incorrect" (biased) assumptions will get you to the wrong place
- neogodless 7y ago> In that scenario, the cost of charging your Tesla Model 3 is therefore zero. In the Toyota Camry LE hybrid it’s $0.05 per mile. How long would it take you to make up for the Toyota’s $11,805 up-front price advantage? > For the average American who drives 1,000 miles per month, $0.05 per mile is $50 per month, or $600 per year. Divide $11,805 with $600 and you get almost 20 years. At least the article offers a generous alternative for comparison.
- rconti 7y agoThe average american doesn't drive a toyota camry hybrid.
- neogodless 7y agoI'm not sure of your point. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-model/#vwspc-section-5 https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-us-vehicle-sales-figures-... The average American probably drives a fill-sized half-ton, pickup truck or small/medium SUV, or a relatively vanilla sedan from Toyota or Honda (including the Camry.)
- JshWright 7y agoComparing the price of the cars and then talking about payback periods for "fueling" only makes sense if the _only_ difference between the cars is the source of power. That's obviously not the case, so the comparison is meaningless.
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- astuyvenberg 7y ago¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and? I don't think fuel economy is the reason people purchase a Tesla. The Model 3 beats the Camry on cool-points alone.
- neogodless 7y agoThe number of cars that beat the Camry on cool-points, but sell a lot less each year is a very long list. At least the Model 3 sales are growing and could very well overtake the Camry at some point. (Camry sold about twice the Model 3 in the US last year.)
- astuyvenberg 7y agoOh absolutely! I'm commenting that fuel economy is likely not the deciding factor for people considering purchasing a Tesla vs a Camry. In fact, I can't imagine many car purchase decisions boil down to "Camry vs Model 3".
- robbrown451 7y ago"Let’s further assume that I live like most people do in the world today, in an apartment, and I park on the street." That's quite an assumption. I have to park on the street. I would not choose an EV as long as this is true. Duh. The article also factors in the price of the vehicle, which doesn't make sense. Yes my used Honda is cheaper than a Tesla vehicle overall. I'm also not driving as nice a car.
- sparker72678 7y agoAnd I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Tesla owners today are not living in apartments and parking on the street.
- gruez 7y agoI'd even go one step further and say most car owners aren't living in apartments and park on the street.
- beatgammit 7y agoPrecisely. If the conversation is about fuel costs per mile, keep it about fuel costs per mile. They should include figures for: - supercharger station electricity costs - national average electricity costs - national average, amortized home solar costs And then compare the fuel cost difference for each vs the price difference of each to help people decide whether the premium for an EV is worth it.
- urthen 7y agoWhy would the author include that when it's not in their best interests? In the disclosures they clearly state they are financially biased towards TSLA's failure. It's little more than a hit piece intended to influence their stock price downwards so the author will make money.
- beatgammit 7y agoHopefully they give practical advice based on relevant observations to build trust with their readership. This particular article does the opposite. I get that they have a motive to slam Tesla, but shoddy articles don't install confidence in their brand.
- azernik 7y agoThe headline is based off of a big assumption: that the Tesla cannot be charged off of home power, but instead has to always be charged at a supercharger at about double the average residential electricity rate. > First of all, this article deals with the large group of people who don’t have any ability to charge at home. For them, talking about charging at home is as irrelevant as a vegan cook book serving up a steak recipe. It just isn’t relevant to them. Yes, some people live in houses and can charge at home. Most people in this world can’t. So, Supercharging it is. According to the Department of Energy [1], 63% of residential units have a garage or carport, including 37% of rental units. (There's also a complaint here about the Tesla just being substantially more expensive, which, true enough.) [1] https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017-sixty-three-percent-all-housing-units-have-garage-or-carport https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/fact-958-january-2-2017...
- almost_usual 7y ago> In that scenario, the cost of charging your Tesla Model 3 is therefore zero. In the Toyota Camry LE hybrid it’s $0.05 per mile. How long would it take you to make up for the Toyota’s $11,805 up-front price advantage? > For the average American who drives 1,000 miles per month, $0.05 per mile is $50 per month, or $600 per year. Divide $11,805 with $600 and you get almost 20 years. Read the whole article.
- azernik 7y agoI did read the whole article. The headline is the clickbaity and misleading part. The end of the article is... well, true? The Model 3 is a somewhat-higher-end car. Note that I mentioned the price complaint in my original comment, which is at the end of the article.
- almost_usual 7y agoHow is the title incorrect?
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- luxuryballs 7y agoThe inconvenience factor of running out of fuel is a pretty big difference too, a quick ride to the gas station and back for a gallon of gas versus a tow and recharge time.
- Lendal 7y agoHe's not comparing apples to apples. $0.28 per kWh is the most expensive way possible to recharge a Tesla, while $2.59 per gallon is NOT the most expensive way possible to refuel a Camry.
- glitchc 7y agoIt just costs less to fuel in a narrow scenario (always charging on the road). For traveling salesmen, this might matter somewhat, although there aren’t that many of those left. The TCO of the Tesla is still lower. I’m not even a Tesla fanboy, but on a typical car, maintenance is ~$500 per year over the life of the car.
- lotsofpulp 7y agoHow does one know the TCO of a Tesla over the life of a car if it hasn't been out long enough? Camry has a proven track record.
- glitchc 7y agoIndeed, that’s a good point. The sporadic repairs that folks have reported (infotainment motherboard replacement for failing flash memory) have been rather costly. It’s hard to tell how frequent those are, Tesla isn’t releasing numbers and there are no third-party facilities that service Teslas who may have such numbers. It is quite hard to tell.
- smcg 7y agoElectrics might be more expensive now but they are better for our future.
- hokkos 7y agoOr just customize the number here to compare different models, even using its supercharger usage (which is probably not the norm) and cheap gas TM3 still come cheaper : http://carboncounter.com/ http://carboncounter.com/
- revscat 7y agoAnd like almost every similar article, it fails to take into account the externalized cost of carbon.
- tashoecraft 7y agoI disagree on any comparison where the cost difference between the vehicles is one of the big arguments. This same argument applied to the Prius, but it completely ignores how the majority of people actually buy cars. Very few people will cross shop these cars, regardless of cost savings, because they were already planning on buying a 35k+ car. So if they start looking towards other cars, it will almost certainly be other cars in that price range. Taken to an extreme I can compare the Tesla with a electric moped, but that doesn’t benefit anyone. The model 3 is targeting the entry level Bmw, Mercedes, Audi crowd, the high end American sedan crowd, and the low-mid Asian luxury sedans. Compare against those cars as that’s what the perspective buyers are comparing against. If Tesla makes a truly budget sedan in the 20k range, then it’s a different comparison.
- WBrad 7y agoI find this analysis hard to take seriously. The majority of Tesla owners aren't average Americans, most have homes. Secondly Tesla has positioned itself as a luxury car manufacturer, a better comparison would be the Lexus ES Hybrid($42k base) vs the model 3($39k base), Or comparing the Camry hybrid ($28k base) to a Chevrolet Bolt($37k base), or even the Nissan Leaf EV ($29k before tax credit, $22k after) I do however agree the average American who lives in an apartment isn't getting the best deal with a full EV at the moment. I'd be pushing for PHEV vehicles like the Volt or Prius Prime to those who want to be able to charge but don't always have the opportunity.
- debrice 7y agoI have to admit, I’m quite impressed by the performance of the Camry Hybrid here! In the long run, I suspect gas price will keep going up. I live in Los Angeles and pay around $4/gallon, at this rate it will become extremely hard for gasoline vehicles to compete against electric vehicles.
- linsomniac 7y agoTL;DR: Calculated using the national average fuel cost and double the national average electric costs.
- dubcanada 7y agoOf course the Tesla costs more? Why is the $10k difference even a matter, it should just be about the fuel. That part seems to indict this article is biased.
- lm28469 7y agoIf you don't take into account the cost of burning gas for the future generations, sure. Also, in Europe we're closer to $6 a gallon than $2.59 a gallon
- bagacrap 7y agoTeslas are a status symbol. If they were cheaper than a Camry, no one would buy a Camry, and the people who do buy Teslas would look for something else to signal their wealth.
- shams93 7y agoTesla is the most expensive case how about comparing the Toyota to the less expenses electrics like the Fiat e500.
- msoad 7y agoYou can only make sense of this article if you have never sat in a Tesla Model 3 and a Toyota Camry. This is worse than comparing oranges to apples! Tesla's build quality is more like BMW, Lexus and Mercedes than Toyota. Comparing to those cars you won't have that $11k advantage, fuel will cost more because you have to use premium petrol and cost of maintenance will be vastly different in the long run.
- celerrimus 7y agoInteresting point of view. I assume you never sat in the recent model of Camry. I have opportunity to sat in two Tesla S, they are much more like Korean cars 10+ years ago. Beside fancy screens, cheap and shoddy inside, unacceptable for the price. Something that can't be compared to european or japanese mid-size cars. Or even recent korean models. I never sat in Model 3, and I'm comparing to european version of Camry, maybe US version made locally is "cheaper" inside, as we here in Europe pay much more attention to this. Regarding fuel, I'm not an expert for US market, but again in Europe standard fuel (95 octanes) is sufficient enough for every car, even top performance engines like Ferrari. You can buy premium petrol, 98 or even over 100 octanes, but it's not required. Tesla is expensive brand, but I don't think it's considered premium on this side of the pond. Especially with terrible reputations about the customer service. I think it would be fair to compare it with Camry - or in case someone need little more luxury, there's Lexus ES - basically Toyota Camry with premium touch - still noticeably cheaper than Lexus ES.
- ssewell 7y agoWorth noting: Andy Slye did an in-depth real-world analysis of his Model 3 for the first 10k miles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0MjZOR89Fk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0MjZOR89Fk He got $0.0206 per mile. Much lower than the article's estimates.
- nimbius 7y agothe article seems to take a stab at cost of ownership which is hardly why people buy a Tesla. If we are being pragmatic the lifespan of the battery itself is to be considered as well. after 8-10 years some are reporting range losses close to 100 miles. https://undecidedmf.com/episodes/2019/10/29/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last-my-tesla-is-losing-range https://undecidedmf.com/episodes/2019/10/29/how-long-does-a-... a 10 year old camry, well maintained if anything, will stay level in range as cam lobes and valves seat, and piston rings set into the grooves of the cylinder wall. if you really wanted to trump the fueling cost of a Tesla, you might consider just buying an older Honda. with lighter weight and lower horsepower they will likely be cheaper to "fuel" than a new Tesla 3. walking and public transportation are also cheaper than Tesla ownership. Then again owning a tesla is rarely about the cost of ownership.
- elcano 7y agoIt is not a serious article about cost of ownership. It cherry picks and conveniently creates scenarios that make the case that the author wants to prove. For cost of ownership the author had to include the cost of a lot of oil changes, timing belt changes, spark plugs changes and several other costly mechanical maintenance that you have to do to ICE cars that you don't do to electric cars. That, of course, is not included.
- Whatarethese 7y agoThis seems like FUD.