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One thing that's interesting to me is, modern cars know (relatively accurately) whether you're speeding or not. They have GPS and a database of speed limits. A

One thing that's interesting to me is, modern cars know (relatively accurately) whether you're speeding or not. They have GPS and a database of speed limits. Also depending on what's in the car, they may know who was driving it. How long before a speed safety campaign starts arguing that car manufacturers should be handing over information about people breaking the law in their cars to law enforcement...

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/cars-in-europe-could-be-fitted-with-technology-to-stop-speeding.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/cars-in-europe-could-be-fitt... You won't be allowed to break the law. The petrol heads will complain but they will lose because "think of the children".
- raesene9 7y ago
  I predict a strong market for "classic" cars that are exempt from these regulations...
  - brewdad 7y ago
    I predict that drivers would then be required to retrofit a monitoring device in order to be road legal. Oregon already experimented with GPS tracking as an alternative to paying the gas tax.
- gambiting 7y ago
  Even the very proposals for this say that there should be an ovveride in the cabin, just like you can switch the Start/Stop system off. I'm one of those "petrolheads" and it's not a law I worry about in the slightest.
no_flags 7y ago
Our phones, too.
mhb 7y ago
Well what has happened with speeding inferences that can be made from electronic tolls?
paganel 7y ago
I also suspect that in the near future insurance companies will demand higher premiums from drivers who commute on more "dangerous" roads (i.e. roads on which statistically speaking more accidents happen). The companies already have easy-enough access to most of the drivers' GPS data, they certainly do know the GPS locations of most of today's accidents (via Waze-like services), I'm surprised why they haven't already started implementing this.
- PinguTS 7y ago
  In fact there are insurers right now, which give a discount of up to 20% if you share your data with them and if you "follow the rules" like not driving so fast, not doing so much acceleration, … The problem is, if more and more people switching to those insurances it becomes very expansive for people who mind their privacy.
  - Jamwinner 7y ago
    The other issues is that their sensors always report bad driving. There is no upside to putting one on your car.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I'm surprised why they haven't already started implementing this. I would be completely unsurprised if they've run the numbers and determined that penalizing entire zip codes is far more lucrative.
Spooky23 7y ago
That is already here for motor carriers. New York, Kentucky and Tennessee have been piloting different technologies for a few years for truck and bus inspections. Cars are required to have certain telemetry capabilities starting in 2020 or 2021 as well. We’ll have automatic inspections and taxation by the end of the decade. Law enforcement already has fairly pervasive networks of fixed and mobile LPR. You cannot leave most cities without a record of it, and if you attract federal attention, passage through many interstate corridors is captured with LPR and photos of occupants.
avip 7y ago
It's already handed over to insurance companies.
esotericn 7y ago
The information is still not even remotely accurate enough for this to work without ridiculously high levels of false positives. An obvious example would be in Germany. The autobahn for example has sections that are unrestricted, but those same sections are 130kmh (or sometimes lower) if it's between certain times or raining or whatever. Half of the time my car interprets that as just being 130. Outside of that; there are countless instances of my car thinking I'm in an 80kmh zone when it's actually 100, 120, whatever. I can override that because I know what the actual speed limit is. Would the car be constantly reporting back that I'm doing a bad? Ultimately I reckon perfect enforcement of this would just stop me bothering. I'll get someone else to drive me around like an Uber and they can take the endless tickets instead.
- 34679 7y ago
  There are a lot of useful data points in modern cars. For instance, the compression rate of your suspension can indicate how aggressively you're cornering. This sort of thing is already being used in opt-in programs by insurers in the US. They interpret as much data as possible in an attempt to calculate for each customer a sort of driver safety rating that is then used to determine insurance rates.
- raesene9 7y ago
  I guess that depends on country. For example the UK has no public road (that I'm aware of) where a speed of higher than 70mph is allowed, so that would be an easy initial rule. Where there are dynamic speed limits in place, it would be plausible to report back possibles (car location and speed) which could then be checked against a central database which was more accurate. I'm not suggesting that such a system is a good idea, but that I can see car safety campaigners looking on it as the next step in their campaigns...
  - gambiting 7y ago
    This already exists and it's a massive fucking joke - it's called "black box insurance unit". My sister had one in her car and during one year we've had to ring up the insurance company multiple times to manually correct her driving score, as she was being penalised for "severe speeding". After asking the company to send us the full tracking data it was completely obvious that the system doesn't have enough accuracy - couple times it tagged her as going 50mph(!!!) over the speed limit, because she was driving 70mph on the motorway going over a small 20mph road.....so the system naively queried the speed limit at coordinates XYZ and concluded that she was going nearly 4x the limit. Good thing her insurance wasn't automatically cancelled over it as I've heard it happen to many people in this country(and then you need to go and fight it with the insurance company, like your time is free or something).
34679 7y ago
IMO, it's more likely that humans will be mostly priced out of driving, via insurance, once the data show that self-driving vehicles are safer. It still isn't settled exactly how insurance will work on a car without a steering wheel. Will the manufacturer insure its entire fleet or will the customer insure their personal vehicle? Or will there be something entirely new, like a government approved industry standard that shifts liability to the public? Whatever happens, insurers will make it more and more expensive for a human to drive a car once it becomes clear that it's safer for a computer to do the driving.
PinguTS 7y ago
Talk to automotive guys and you will learn that the most current map with this kind of information is in minimum 6 month old. But most of the time this information is 2 to 3 years behind. This is true for all current map providers.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>How long before a speed safety campaign starts arguing that car manufacturers should be handing over information about people breaking the law in their cars to law enforcement... Probably sometime after we have speed limits reasonable enough that the overwhelming majority people do not routinely exceed them and/or the politicians who write the laws stop driving.
detritus 7y ago
I rented a van last year from a company I don't ordinarily use and had to phone them up about the constant beeping that I couldn't figure the source of. Little did I realise that was a direct admission I'd been speeding on my way back to the studio! - ed (It wasn't even bad speeding (mostly) - I'm in London after all - it kicked in every time I went a mile an hour over whatever limit I was subject to. Very [very] annoying)
falcolas 7y ago
At least in my 2019 Subaru, that DB is already badly out of date for my area. Amusingly, it's all on the high side - 80 for a 75 zone, and 45 for a 35 zone. It's also usually late in registering the switches, by a good quarter mile in some cases.
foxyv 7y ago
I wouldn't mind an automated governor that picks up speed limits from RFIDs in the road. If it could make residential roads safe for kids again it would be worth it 10x over. Although automated fines for passing the speed limit is kinda stupid when you can just limit the car in the first place.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/cars-in-europe-could-be-fitted-with-technology-to-stop-speeding.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/cars-in-europe-could-be-fitt... You won't be allowed to break the law. The petrol heads will complain but they will lose because "think of the children".

raesene9 7y ago
I predict a strong market for "classic" cars that are exempt from these regulations...
- brewdad 7y ago
  I predict that drivers would then be required to retrofit a monitoring device in order to be road legal. Oregon already experimented with GPS tracking as an alternative to paying the gas tax.
gambiting 7y ago
Even the very proposals for this say that there should be an ovveride in the cabin, just like you can switch the Start/Stop system off. I'm one of those "petrolheads" and it's not a law I worry about in the slightest.

no_flags 7y ago

Our phones, too.

mhb 7y ago

Well what has happened with speeding inferences that can be made from electronic tolls?

paganel 7y ago

I also suspect that in the near future insurance companies will demand higher premiums from drivers who commute on more "dangerous" roads (i.e. roads on which statistically speaking more accidents happen). The companies already have easy-enough access to most of the drivers' GPS data, they certainly do know the GPS locations of most of today's accidents (via Waze-like services), I'm surprised why they haven't already started implementing this.

PinguTS 7y ago
In fact there are insurers right now, which give a discount of up to 20% if you share your data with them and if you "follow the rules" like not driving so fast, not doing so much acceleration, … The problem is, if more and more people switching to those insurances it becomes very expansive for people who mind their privacy.
- Jamwinner 7y ago
  The other issues is that their sensors always report bad driving. There is no upside to putting one on your car.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>I'm surprised why they haven't already started implementing this. I would be completely unsurprised if they've run the numbers and determined that penalizing entire zip codes is far more lucrative.

Spooky23 7y ago

That is already here for motor carriers. New York, Kentucky and Tennessee have been piloting different technologies for a few years for truck and bus inspections. Cars are required to have certain telemetry capabilities starting in 2020 or 2021 as well. We’ll have automatic inspections and taxation by the end of the decade. Law enforcement already has fairly pervasive networks of fixed and mobile LPR. You cannot leave most cities without a record of it, and if you attract federal attention, passage through many interstate corridors is captured with LPR and photos of occupants.

avip 7y ago

It's already handed over to insurance companies.

esotericn 7y ago

The information is still not even remotely accurate enough for this to work without ridiculously high levels of false positives. An obvious example would be in Germany. The autobahn for example has sections that are unrestricted, but those same sections are 130kmh (or sometimes lower) if it's between certain times or raining or whatever. Half of the time my car interprets that as just being 130. Outside of that; there are countless instances of my car thinking I'm in an 80kmh zone when it's actually 100, 120, whatever. I can override that because I know what the actual speed limit is. Would the car be constantly reporting back that I'm doing a bad? Ultimately I reckon perfect enforcement of this would just stop me bothering. I'll get someone else to drive me around like an Uber and they can take the endless tickets instead.

34679 7y ago
There are a lot of useful data points in modern cars. For instance, the compression rate of your suspension can indicate how aggressively you're cornering. This sort of thing is already being used in opt-in programs by insurers in the US. They interpret as much data as possible in an attempt to calculate for each customer a sort of driver safety rating that is then used to determine insurance rates.
raesene9 7y ago
I guess that depends on country. For example the UK has no public road (that I'm aware of) where a speed of higher than 70mph is allowed, so that would be an easy initial rule. Where there are dynamic speed limits in place, it would be plausible to report back possibles (car location and speed) which could then be checked against a central database which was more accurate. I'm not suggesting that such a system is a good idea, but that I can see car safety campaigners looking on it as the next step in their campaigns...
- gambiting 7y ago
  This already exists and it's a massive fucking joke - it's called "black box insurance unit". My sister had one in her car and during one year we've had to ring up the insurance company multiple times to manually correct her driving score, as she was being penalised for "severe speeding". After asking the company to send us the full tracking data it was completely obvious that the system doesn't have enough accuracy - couple times it tagged her as going 50mph(!!!) over the speed limit, because she was driving 70mph on the motorway going over a small 20mph road.....so the system naively queried the speed limit at coordinates XYZ and concluded that she was going nearly 4x the limit. Good thing her insurance wasn't automatically cancelled over it as I've heard it happen to many people in this country(and then you need to go and fight it with the insurance company, like your time is free or something).

34679 7y ago

IMO, it's more likely that humans will be mostly priced out of driving, via insurance, once the data show that self-driving vehicles are safer. It still isn't settled exactly how insurance will work on a car without a steering wheel. Will the manufacturer insure its entire fleet or will the customer insure their personal vehicle? Or will there be something entirely new, like a government approved industry standard that shifts liability to the public? Whatever happens, insurers will make it more and more expensive for a human to drive a car once it becomes clear that it's safer for a computer to do the driving.

PinguTS 7y ago

Talk to automotive guys and you will learn that the most current map with this kind of information is in minimum 6 month old. But most of the time this information is 2 to 3 years behind. This is true for all current map providers.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>How long before a speed safety campaign starts arguing that car manufacturers should be handing over information about people breaking the law in their cars to law enforcement... Probably sometime after we have speed limits reasonable enough that the overwhelming majority people do not routinely exceed them and/or the politicians who write the laws stop driving.

detritus 7y ago

I rented a van last year from a company I don't ordinarily use and had to phone them up about the constant beeping that I couldn't figure the source of. Little did I realise that was a direct admission I'd been speeding on my way back to the studio! - ed (It wasn't even bad speeding (mostly) - I'm in London after all - it kicked in every time I went a mile an hour over whatever limit I was subject to. Very [very] annoying)

falcolas 7y ago

At least in my 2019 Subaru, that DB is already badly out of date for my area. Amusingly, it's all on the high side - 80 for a 75 zone, and 45 for a 35 zone. It's also usually late in registering the switches, by a good quarter mile in some cases.

foxyv 7y ago

I wouldn't mind an automated governor that picks up speed limits from RFIDs in the road. If it could make residential roads safe for kids again it would be worth it 10x over. Although automated fines for passing the speed limit is kinda stupid when you can just limit the car in the first place.