7 ms·

This looks a lot more like an apprenticeship to me than a degree. Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching practical skills

by tybit 7y ago

This looks a lot more like an apprenticeship to me than a degree. Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching practical skills and fantastic at teaching theory.

stonejolt 7y ago
That's what we call 'Duales Studium' in Germany. You just do your semesters normally and in between instead of springbreak etc you work for the company.
- curiousgal 7y ago
  It's popular in France too, "Alternance"; you spend two or three days in the company per week and the rest in school. It's mostly for senior grad students.
- lwkl 7y ago
  This is like part-time studies at a university of applied science in Switzerland. You can work up to 60% but the bachelors degree takes a year longer.
- dna_polymerase 7y ago
  Yes, and the founder of Shopify is originally from Germany, I bet he got inspired by that.
  - spinlock_ 7y ago
    Yeah, I guess so too. Toby told in a podcast [0] that he finished an apprenticeship as "Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung". Though it's not the same as "Duales Studium" (which gives you an academic degree while former doesn't) I guess this program was highly influenced by his experience. Though I'm asking myself if this kind of program is common in Canada or is Shopify doing something unique here? [0]: https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/ https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/
ec109685 7y ago
Waterloo does this where they mix internships and study throughout their time.
- chairmanwow1 7y ago
  And this is why I always love having a Waterloo intern / new grad on the team. They are just so productive. They hit the ground _sprinting_.
  - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
    But then the intern experience counts for nothing in terms of "years of experience" for stupid HR departments and most companies usually refuse to give a better than new grad offer to wloo coop grads. Others who instead finished school in 3 years without internships and then started working already have a promotion at that point. I don't recommend anyone talented go coop, just do the normal program, grind leetcode and maybe do one internship if it leads to a good return offer. Also one big reason some Waterloo grads hit the ground sprinting is because Waterloo attracts talent with high cognitive ability and interest in tech. Be careful not to confuse that with the coop program (which may have its own benefits, but would not work nearly as well without talented students).
    - king_magic 7y ago
      I’ve never ignored co-op/intern experience with folks I’ve interviewed, nor has any HR/recruiting department I’ve ever worked with.
      - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
        From big company recruiting I've seen like here at Amazon they definitely do at least consider it inferior to "real" experience. SDE2 is not given for new coop grads or returning interns with 2 years exp, but you can get SDE2 if you worked at another place full time or at AMZN for 1-2 years. It's pure BS. Here is an example for you of explicitly requesting non-intern experience: > BASIC QUALIFICATIONS · 2+ years of non-internship professional software development experience https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/918696/software-development-engineer https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/918696/software-development-...
OJFord 7y ago
In the UK it's both, 'degree apprenticeships' were introduced recently (couple of years ago): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/699399/Higher_and_degree_apprenticeship_fact_sheet-090418.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... ('Higher' being 'degree equivalent', and 'degree' being with an actual degree conferred by an actual university.) At Arm I had a colleague who was on that programme, and so was also studying at a university. I think it started off part-time, 2 and 3 days of a week or something, and then switched to term-here/term-there. I agree, great scheme. (Icing on the cake: I believe the education is paid for (subsidised by government and paid for by company?) in addition to the work being paid.)
- andrewjrhill 7y ago
  This is so great. I would have preferred to do something like this when I was fresh out of High School instead of going the traditional route of studying full-time or immediately entering the workforce.
  - celticninja 7y ago
    You still can, im doing this now.
overcast 7y ago
This is what RIT has always been about, where you MUST complete PAID cooperative education for degree credits. Typically after year 2, you're going to school some semesters, and then working the other semesters at a company in your field. It's a great stepping stone to get into the workforce
c_codes 7y ago
I'm currently in the program and it is very much both. We work 20 hours a week at Shopify, and take three classes per term, including the summer, at the university. We are paid a salary and our tuition is covered. At the end of the program we will have had 4 placements at Shopify, and receive a Comp Sci Honours degree from the University.

by tybit 7y ago

This looks a lot more like an apprenticeship to me than a degree. Which I think is fantastic, Universities are generally terrible at teaching practical skills and fantastic at teaching theory.

stonejolt 7y ago

That's what we call 'Duales Studium' in Germany. You just do your semesters normally and in between instead of springbreak etc you work for the company.

curiousgal 7y ago
It's popular in France too, "Alternance"; you spend two or three days in the company per week and the rest in school. It's mostly for senior grad students.
lwkl 7y ago
This is like part-time studies at a university of applied science in Switzerland. You can work up to 60% but the bachelors degree takes a year longer.
dna_polymerase 7y ago
Yes, and the founder of Shopify is originally from Germany, I bet he got inspired by that.
- spinlock_ 7y ago
  Yeah, I guess so too. Toby told in a podcast [0] that he finished an apprenticeship as "Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung". Though it's not the same as "Duales Studium" (which gives you an academic degree while former doesn't) I guess this program was highly influenced by his experience. Though I'm asking myself if this kind of program is common in Canada or is Shopify doing something unique here? [0]: https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/ https://fs.blog/tobi-lutke/

ec109685 7y ago

Waterloo does this where they mix internships and study throughout their time.

chairmanwow1 7y ago
And this is why I always love having a Waterloo intern / new grad on the team. They are just so productive. They hit the ground _sprinting_.
- amznthrowaway5 7y ago
  But then the intern experience counts for nothing in terms of "years of experience" for stupid HR departments and most companies usually refuse to give a better than new grad offer to wloo coop grads. Others who instead finished school in 3 years without internships and then started working already have a promotion at that point. I don't recommend anyone talented go coop, just do the normal program, grind leetcode and maybe do one internship if it leads to a good return offer. Also one big reason some Waterloo grads hit the ground sprinting is because Waterloo attracts talent with high cognitive ability and interest in tech. Be careful not to confuse that with the coop program (which may have its own benefits, but would not work nearly as well without talented students).
  - king_magic 7y ago
    I’ve never ignored co-op/intern experience with folks I’ve interviewed, nor has any HR/recruiting department I’ve ever worked with.
    - amznthrowaway5 7y ago
      From big company recruiting I've seen like here at Amazon they definitely do at least consider it inferior to "real" experience. SDE2 is not given for new coop grads or returning interns with 2 years exp, but you can get SDE2 if you worked at another place full time or at AMZN for 1-2 years. It's pure BS. Here is an example for you of explicitly requesting non-intern experience: > BASIC QUALIFICATIONS · 2+ years of non-internship professional software development experience https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/918696/software-development-engineer https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/918696/software-development-...

OJFord 7y ago

In the UK it's both, 'degree apprenticeships' were introduced recently (couple of years ago): https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/699399/Higher_and_degree_apprenticeship_fact_sheet-090418.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... ('Higher' being 'degree equivalent', and 'degree' being with an actual degree conferred by an actual university.) At Arm I had a colleague who was on that programme, and so was also studying at a university. I think it started off part-time, 2 and 3 days of a week or something, and then switched to term-here/term-there. I agree, great scheme. (Icing on the cake: I believe the education is paid for (subsidised by government and paid for by company?) in addition to the work being paid.)

andrewjrhill 7y ago
This is so great. I would have preferred to do something like this when I was fresh out of High School instead of going the traditional route of studying full-time or immediately entering the workforce.
- celticninja 7y ago
  You still can, im doing this now.

overcast 7y ago

This is what RIT has always been about, where you MUST complete PAID cooperative education for degree credits. Typically after year 2, you're going to school some semesters, and then working the other semesters at a company in your field. It's a great stepping stone to get into the workforce

c_codes 7y ago

I'm currently in the program and it is very much both. We work 20 hours a week at Shopify, and take three classes per term, including the summer, at the university. We are paid a salary and our tuition is covered. At the end of the program we will have had 4 placements at Shopify, and receive a Comp Sci Honours degree from the University.