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"Two and two may equal four" being a bunch of nonsensical racist slandering based on no evidence. Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are e

"Two and two may equal four" being a bunch of nonsensical racist slandering based on no evidence. Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. And trust me, there's been no lack of racist scientists. It's just that bullshit doesn't stick.

barry-cotter 7y ago
> Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. This isn’t true. Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians have higher IQ scores than whites. Male and female scores on IQ tests are identical by construction. They have different scores on the component sub tests. http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997mainstream.pdf http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997mainstrea... Mainstream Science on Intelligence: An Editorial With 52 Signatories, History, and Bibliography Since the publication of “The Bell Curve,” many commentators have offered opinions about human intelligence that misstate cur- rent scientific evidence. Some conclusions dismissed in the media as discredited are ac- tually firmly supported. This statement outlines conclusions re- garded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, ori- gins, and practical consequences of individu- al and group differences in intelligence. Its aim is to promote more reasoned discussion of the vexing phenomenon that the research has revealed in recent decades. The follow- ing conclusions are fully described in the major textbooks, professional journals and encyclopedias in intelligence.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jdauriemma 7y ago
  Those bell curves don't control for environmental and other non-genetic factors, making your statements - insofar as they are based on the document you linked - irrelevant to the conversation.
  - toomim 7y ago
    He wasn't commenting on which factors cause difference in test scores. He was simply saying that the test scores are different. But it's become an unfortunate pattern that when people bring up the difference in scores, other people (like you) presume that mentioning the correlation data itself is akin to arguing that they are caused by genetic factors, and then attack them for not mentioning the environmental factors.
    - Eldt 7y ago
      This is disingenuous. Did you miss where he mentioned "whites" without any context of location/upbringing/...
      - toomim 7y ago
        There you go again, attacking him for not mentioning the environmental factors. You are too predictable. You just did exactly the behavior I criticized, in response to my critique!
- soyiuz 7y ago
  I suggest going back to school on your basic terms. Skin color taxonomies such as "white" and "black" are weak proxies for genetic diversity. Races are not taught this way anymore. This article in Scientific American puts it well in summarizing that "the mainstream belief among scientists is that race is a social construct without biological meaning."^1 "Ashkenazi Jews ... have higher IQ scores than whites" is a nonsensical statement from that perspective. You are mixing categories of ancestry and skin color. The authors of Bell Curve made the same basic mistake and were rightly skewered for it. 1. https://www-scientificamerican-com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/ https://www-scientificamerican-com/article/race-is-a-social-...
  - deogeo 7y ago
    Apply principal component analysis to human DNA, and not only does race pop out, it even coincides with the 'socially constructed' categories [1,2,3]. A 2009 survey of physical anthropologists in Europe by Katarzyna Kaszycka found that 51% (N=123) recognize biological race - 33% in Western Europe, and 70% in Eastern Europe [4]. In a review of China's only biological anthropological journal Acta Anthropologica Sinica, 324 article from the 1982-2001 period that dealt with human variation. The researchers found that "all of the articles used the race concept and none of them questioned its value" [5]. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_component_analysis_of_human_genetic_diversity https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_compon... [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Individual-level_human_population_structure2.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Individual-level_hum... [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3D_PCA_plot_of_Xavante.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3D_PCA_plot_of_Xavan... [4] http://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x http://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x [5] https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/on-the-concept-of-race-in-chinese-biological-anthropology-alive-and-well.pdf https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/on-...
  - Chris2048 7y ago
    Do you have studies that use better taxonomies of "race"? Or do you mean any statement about race is so confounded by social factors it becomes nonsensical. Also, The original claim was: > Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are.. If you muddy the water wrt race, it invalidates the above claim also.
shard972 7y ago
Oh here comes the racist brigade to yell down moral proclamation upon the unwashed masses. You know what, who cares if Watson was a flaming racist? He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans but he makes one opinion about intelligence and hes slagged off and completely discredited? Cancel culture has been in science a lot longer than people know.
- wesleywt 7y ago
  Should someone be excused from dubious behaviors because he did one thing in his youth? The DNA model would have been elucidated by someone eventually. I also doubt it helped 'millions' of Africans.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans How?
- Fishysoup 7y ago
  For "Africans"? Really? Everyone is aware of Watson's contributions (though there is of course ample evidence that he stole a lot of the work from Rosalind Franklin and gave her no credit for it, then said things like "of course Franklin couldn't envision the structure of DNA because jewish women can't see in 3D - he said this in front of a preeminent female jewish structural biologist too). The discredit isn't against his scientific achievements, it's against his racist-ass opinions. That's why people don't invite him to talks much anymore, because he just goes and says made up racist shit.
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    He said that about Jews, not just about Jewish women
deogeo 7y ago
> Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. Really? The strongest rebuttals I ever saw boiled down to "it has not yet been conclusively proven impossible that all races are equally intelligent". Large meta-analyses certainly always find correlation, this one goes a long way towards showing there is causation as well: https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1467-9280.2006.01803.x https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1467-9280.2006.01803.x
- rfdbsd 7y ago
  > Large meta-analyses certainly always find correlation No legitimate study has actually shown that such correlations are caused by genetic factors. However, numerous studies have shown that social factors (i.e. not having access to good schools, not having access to decent healthcare, etc, which statistically and historically correspond with racial divisions) play a major role.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    So showing a correlation between environment and intelligence is clear proof that environment plays a role, but the same kind of correlation with ancestry tells us nothing? Even when economic [1] and environmental factors [2] are corrected for (to the best of our ability), and the differences persist? No matter what the data is, you can always construct some convoluted theory by which ancestry doesn't play a role, just like you can keep adding spheres to make a geocentric solar system work. [1] http://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.gif http://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.g... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...
tasogare 7y ago
Yes, intelligence is 100% environmental and cultural factor, that’s why genetic affliction such as the Down syndrome has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject intelligence... It’s incredible how far some people will bury their head from evidences because of their ideological beliefs. On the contrary, when some facts put a positive light on certain groups (for instance the better maximal physical performance) there is magically no taboo about it at all, and no pressure groups asking for "affirmation action".
- Can_Not 7y ago
  Strawman aside, down syndrome is just as common in black people as it is in white people, so you know, nobody was denying genetics play a role, they're just pointing out there isn't a proven correlation between "the white gene" and IQ like so many racism apologists want to believe.
  - lawnchair_larry 7y ago
    You think it is racist to be curious about IQ variance across races? Why?
    - Eldt 7y ago
      He didn't say anything about curiosity - where did you get that from, exactly?
    - Can_Not 7y ago
      I am curious, it just turns out the world is more fluid and diverse (billions of people, millions of non-isolated genetic populations), and more interesting, than over simplified and debunked ideas like "5 races with known IQ stats".
  - PleaseLoveMe 7y ago
    If this were about "white racists", why would they rank themselves firmly below east asians and ashkenazi jews?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
steveeq1 7y ago
Ok, someone's a racist. So what? At the end of the day, it's a belief system. As long as that person treats people with respect, I have no problem with it. For example, if you are, say, a Christian and some other guy is a Muslim and your offended by that belief, well, that's on you. It shouldn't discredit a scientific theory. Evidence is supposed to do that.
netsharc 7y ago
The fact that your comment is gray means to me there are a lot of racists on HN. Sigh... And worse, they're thinking they're not racist because they think they have scientific backing for their beliefs..
- non-entity 7y ago
  It was just the other day where I someone on here unironically mention social darwinsism in a positive light on here. Honestly I probably need to quit HN because despite the number of informative articles and comments I read, it's more of less just becoming a collection of shit show comment sections (albeit that may be a product of me clicking on threads that encourage this). Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a number of these arctlces wouldn't have ever been allowed on the site a few years ago, but I wasnt as active back then as I am now.
- Chris2048 7y ago
  > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. If you disagree, show your reasoning, or your credentials.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

barry-cotter 7y ago

> Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. This isn’t true. Ashkenazi Jews and East Asians have higher IQ scores than whites. Male and female scores on IQ tests are identical by construction. They have different scores on the component sub tests. http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997mainstream.pdf http://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/1997mainstrea... Mainstream Science on Intelligence: An Editorial With 52 Signatories, History, and Bibliography Since the publication of “The Bell Curve,” many commentators have offered opinions about human intelligence that misstate cur- rent scientific evidence. Some conclusions dismissed in the media as discredited are ac- tually firmly supported. This statement outlines conclusions re- garded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, ori- gins, and practical consequences of individu- al and group differences in intelligence. Its aim is to promote more reasoned discussion of the vexing phenomenon that the research has revealed in recent decades. The follow- ing conclusions are fully described in the major textbooks, professional journals and encyclopedias in intelligence.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jdauriemma 7y ago
Those bell curves don't control for environmental and other non-genetic factors, making your statements - insofar as they are based on the document you linked - irrelevant to the conversation.
- toomim 7y ago
  He wasn't commenting on which factors cause difference in test scores. He was simply saying that the test scores are different. But it's become an unfortunate pattern that when people bring up the difference in scores, other people (like you) presume that mentioning the correlation data itself is akin to arguing that they are caused by genetic factors, and then attack them for not mentioning the environmental factors.
  - Eldt 7y ago
    This is disingenuous. Did you miss where he mentioned "whites" without any context of location/upbringing/...
    - toomim 7y ago
      There you go again, attacking him for not mentioning the environmental factors. You are too predictable. You just did exactly the behavior I criticized, in response to my critique!
soyiuz 7y ago
I suggest going back to school on your basic terms. Skin color taxonomies such as "white" and "black" are weak proxies for genetic diversity. Races are not taught this way anymore. This article in Scientific American puts it well in summarizing that "the mainstream belief among scientists is that race is a social construct without biological meaning."^1 "Ashkenazi Jews ... have higher IQ scores than whites" is a nonsensical statement from that perspective. You are mixing categories of ancestry and skin color. The authors of Bell Curve made the same basic mistake and were rightly skewered for it. 1. https://www-scientificamerican-com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/ https://www-scientificamerican-com/article/race-is-a-social-...
- deogeo 7y ago
  Apply principal component analysis to human DNA, and not only does race pop out, it even coincides with the 'socially constructed' categories [1,2,3]. A 2009 survey of physical anthropologists in Europe by Katarzyna Kaszycka found that 51% (N=123) recognize biological race - 33% in Western Europe, and 70% in Eastern Europe [4]. In a review of China's only biological anthropological journal Acta Anthropologica Sinica, 324 article from the 1982-2001 period that dealt with human variation. The researchers found that "all of the articles used the race concept and none of them questioned its value" [5]. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_component_analysis_of_human_genetic_diversity https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Principal_compon... [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Individual-level_human_population_structure2.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Individual-level_hum... [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3D_PCA_plot_of_Xavante.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:3D_PCA_plot_of_Xavan... [4] http://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x http://sci-hub.tw/10.1111/j.1548-1433.2009.01076.x [5] https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/on-the-concept-of-race-in-chinese-biological-anthropology-alive-and-well.pdf https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/on-...
- Chris2048 7y ago
  Do you have studies that use better taxonomies of "race"? Or do you mean any statement about race is so confounded by social factors it becomes nonsensical. Also, The original claim was: > Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are.. If you muddy the water wrt race, it invalidates the above claim also.

shard972 7y ago

Oh here comes the racist brigade to yell down moral proclamation upon the unwashed masses. You know what, who cares if Watson was a flaming racist? He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans but he makes one opinion about intelligence and hes slagged off and completely discredited? Cancel culture has been in science a lot longer than people know.

wesleywt 7y ago
Should someone be excused from dubious behaviors because he did one thing in his youth? The DNA model would have been elucidated by someone eventually. I also doubt it helped 'millions' of Africans.
saagarjha 7y ago
> He has done more than almost any other person to save the lives of millions of Africans How?
Fishysoup 7y ago
For "Africans"? Really? Everyone is aware of Watson's contributions (though there is of course ample evidence that he stole a lot of the work from Rosalind Franklin and gave her no credit for it, then said things like "of course Franklin couldn't envision the structure of DNA because jewish women can't see in 3D - he said this in front of a preeminent female jewish structural biologist too). The discredit isn't against his scientific achievements, it's against his racist-ass opinions. That's why people don't invite him to talks much anymore, because he just goes and says made up racist shit.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  He said that about Jews, not just about Jewish women

deogeo 7y ago

> Every result ever has pointed that all races and genders are equally "intelligent" and well-suited to the same tasks. Really? The strongest rebuttals I ever saw boiled down to "it has not yet been conclusively proven impossible that all races are equally intelligent". Large meta-analyses certainly always find correlation, this one goes a long way towards showing there is causation as well: https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1467-9280.2006.01803.x https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1467-9280.2006.01803.x

rfdbsd 7y ago
> Large meta-analyses certainly always find correlation No legitimate study has actually shown that such correlations are caused by genetic factors. However, numerous studies have shown that social factors (i.e. not having access to good schools, not having access to decent healthcare, etc, which statistically and historically correspond with racial divisions) play a major role.
- deogeo 7y ago
  So showing a correlation between environment and intelligence is clear proof that environment plays a role, but the same kind of correlation with ancestry tells us nothing? Even when economic [1] and environmental factors [2] are corrected for (to the best of our ability), and the differences persist? No matter what the data is, you can always construct some convoluted theory by which ancestry doesn't play a role, just like you can keep adding spheres to make a geocentric solar system work. [1] http://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.gif http://www.jbhe.com/latest/news/1-22-09/satracialgapfigure.g... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption...

tasogare 7y ago

Yes, intelligence is 100% environmental and cultural factor, that’s why genetic affliction such as the Down syndrome has absolutely no effect whatsoever on the subject intelligence... It’s incredible how far some people will bury their head from evidences because of their ideological beliefs. On the contrary, when some facts put a positive light on certain groups (for instance the better maximal physical performance) there is magically no taboo about it at all, and no pressure groups asking for "affirmation action".

Can_Not 7y ago
Strawman aside, down syndrome is just as common in black people as it is in white people, so you know, nobody was denying genetics play a role, they're just pointing out there isn't a proven correlation between "the white gene" and IQ like so many racism apologists want to believe.
- lawnchair_larry 7y ago
  You think it is racist to be curious about IQ variance across races? Why?
  - Eldt 7y ago
    He didn't say anything about curiosity - where did you get that from, exactly?
  - Can_Not 7y ago
    I am curious, it just turns out the world is more fluid and diverse (billions of people, millions of non-isolated genetic populations), and more interesting, than over simplified and debunked ideas like "5 races with known IQ stats".
- PleaseLoveMe 7y ago
  If this were about "white racists", why would they rank themselves firmly below east asians and ashkenazi jews?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

steveeq1 7y ago

Ok, someone's a racist. So what? At the end of the day, it's a belief system. As long as that person treats people with respect, I have no problem with it. For example, if you are, say, a Christian and some other guy is a Muslim and your offended by that belief, well, that's on you. It shouldn't discredit a scientific theory. Evidence is supposed to do that.

netsharc 7y ago

The fact that your comment is gray means to me there are a lot of racists on HN. Sigh... And worse, they're thinking they're not racist because they think they have scientific backing for their beliefs..

non-entity 7y ago
It was just the other day where I someone on here unironically mention social darwinsism in a positive light on here. Honestly I probably need to quit HN because despite the number of informative articles and comments I read, it's more of less just becoming a collection of shit show comment sections (albeit that may be a product of me clicking on threads that encourage this). Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems a number of these arctlces wouldn't have ever been allowed on the site a few years ago, but I wasnt as active back then as I am now.
Chris2048 7y ago
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. If you disagree, show your reasoning, or your credentials.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]