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> I know that I experience pain I accept you perceive pain in the context of a self. > you can't have an illusion of consciousness, because an "illusion" requ

by kypro 7y ago

> I know that I experience pain I accept you perceive pain in the context of a self. > you can't have an illusion of consciousness, because an "illusion" requires consciousness. I think this might be the core of our disagreement. I don't know why you think that? An illusion is just a false perception of reality so it doesn't technically require consciousness - but I think I know what you're getting at. Imagine a computer which can "see" its surroundings through a camera. Why couldn't I program this computer to think it's conscious and to experience its visual data in the context of a self? That's what I honestly think we're doing and what you're describing when you talk about consciousness. I don't know why the experience you're calling consciousness can't just be explained more easily by your brain processing sensory inputs in the context of a self. I understand to you this feels like a special thing, but from a physical perspective I honestly don't know what you're describing that couldn't be explained as sensory inputs in the context of a self. Would I be right in thinking you don't believe my example computer is conscious? And would it help you understand my position if I said I think my computer might be conscious in a very primitive way?

someguyorother 7y ago
That's why you can't be sure that someone else is conscious. If you program the computer to say it's conscious, that doesn't tell you whether it's conscious or not, only whether it claims to be conscious. However, you do know that you, yourself, are conscious. Consciousness proves its existence every moment by presenting itself to you, by your own pain being something you can notice. If you were a computer who was simply programmed to act as if you were conscious, there would be no subject to the experience. The rest of the world would think you were conscious, but you would be "dead inside". There would be nothing it would be like to be you. So the reason why the experience called consciousness can't just be explained by the brain processing inputs like a computer is that that gives no theory for why consciousness feels so immediate to the person who experiences it. It explains why someone would act as if he were conscious, but not why consciousness itself would exist the way it shows itself to exist to you every moment.
SamBam 7y ago
> An illusion is just a false perception of reality False perception to whom? > Why couldn't I program this computer to think it's conscious Who is thinking it is conscious? > and to experience its visual data Experience how? All these words you're using already require consciousness. You're essentially saying "You don't really experience at all, you're experiencing an illusion!" Can't you see how that is a contradiction? The experience of experiencing an illusion can't itself be an illusion. And that's all we're saying consciousness is: that experience. If you experience anything, that's consciousness.

by kypro 7y ago

someguyorother 7y ago

That's why you can't be sure that someone else is conscious. If you program the computer to say it's conscious, that doesn't tell you whether it's conscious or not, only whether it claims to be conscious. However, you do know that you, yourself, are conscious. Consciousness proves its existence every moment by presenting itself to you, by your own pain being something you can notice. If you were a computer who was simply programmed to act as if you were conscious, there would be no subject to the experience. The rest of the world would think you were conscious, but you would be "dead inside". There would be nothing it would be like to be you. So the reason why the experience called consciousness can't just be explained by the brain processing inputs like a computer is that that gives no theory for why consciousness feels so immediate to the person who experiences it. It explains why someone would act as if he were conscious, but not why consciousness itself would exist the way it shows itself to exist to you every moment.

SamBam 7y ago

> An illusion is just a false perception of reality False perception to whom? > Why couldn't I program this computer to think it's conscious Who is thinking it is conscious? > and to experience its visual data Experience how? All these words you're using already require consciousness. You're essentially saying "You don't really experience at all, you're experiencing an illusion!" Can't you see how that is a contradiction? The experience of experiencing an illusion can't itself be an illusion. And that's all we're saying consciousness is: that experience. If you experience anything, that's consciousness.