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My only concern with the consciousness debate is purely from a self-preservation PoV. Here is a scenario to elaborate: 1) In fifty years compute horsepower is e

My only concern with the consciousness debate is purely from a self-preservation PoV. Here is a scenario to elaborate: 1) In fifty years compute horsepower is enough to be able to fully simulate a brain. 2) population of earth is 10B and climate change is really making the planet unlivable. 3) we believe that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon 4) we decide we'll invest in computronium and just continue our (& other species) lives in cyberspace 5) civilization opts-in to shed the mortal coil and jump to cyberspace. now at this point some super advanced quantum computer realizes that wait a minute, we made some subtle mistake and there does seems to be something else (perhaps quantum) aspect to consciousness that we missed. so now essentially we have committed genocide on ourselves. I just want to be really really really sure that there is nothing else to consciousness before I give in to the 'emergent consciousness thesis'. Personally, I like Roger penrose's 'Orchestrated objective reduction' theory of consciousness where he posits that proto-consciousness is an innate property of universe due to quantum wavefunction collapse. so essentially everytime there is a wf collapse its like the system had a conscious moment. human brain is just an instrument complex enough to 'catch' phenomena and turn it into a conscious experience. The 'how' part is where it gets murky, there have been some attempts to link it to microtubules in brain cells but nothing concrete yet. IMO its worth a serious look from biochemistry point of view.

Psyladine 7y ago
What was genocide if the idiots went to live in computer 'heaven' with catgirl maids and whatever other narcissistic fantasies they cooked up? You're saying like we build a plane to go to mars and then once in space the computer discovers it needs air to move and now we're fucked... why does your first posit on magic petaflops not translate into effective reading of the brain and how it works?
- DesiLurker 7y ago
  >> You're saying like we build a plane to go to mars and then once in space the computer discovers it needs air to move and now we're fucked... thats inaccurate description of what I said, its more like .. well for a topic like this there really are no good analogies. but to elaborate further (as i hinted) it could be something related to a quantum mechanical state which when you measure you effectively destroy the system and now all you are left with a hollow shell that acts and responds just like the original (so from others pov its the same person, mostly) but in itself its like a psychological zombie. now whether or not it is 'you' (assuming you are the person transported) is again a matter of it being emergent property or innate one. which was the whole point to begin with. simply put, at what resolution a simulation of you becomes 'you'? is it a question of resolution or is there something else to it? given the fact that there are many biological processes that utilize quantum mechanics why is it so far fetched to imagine that consciousness itself could be rooted in QM? >> What was genocide if the idiots went to live in computer 'heaven' with catgirl maids and whatever other narcissistic fantasies they cooked up? If I were to put you in a coma like sleep and then by some pending technological breakthrough cookup whatever fantasies you desire to play eternally in you 'sleep', does that makes it okay? is it same as being alive? I dont think so, even if you are okay with it.
cr0sh 7y ago
> IMO its worth a serious look from biochemistry point of view. I'm not a scientist, and certainly not a quantum physicist. But from what I understand, the main argument against this idea (that is, quantum effects within neurons - or some other biological quantum effect system) is the fact that as far as we know, such quantum effects cannot occur at any temperature near "average human body temperature". If such could be demonstrated, it would upend a massive amount of knowledge in and around QM/QP. But then again, dual-slit experiment? Maybe something is there? Again - far outside my understanding and knowledge, and likely is completely wrong, etc. It might make a good science-fiction plot for a novel or something, though...
- DesiLurker 7y ago
  >> as far as we know, such quantum effects cannot occur at any temperature thats the too warm wet & noisy argument generally made. AFAIK it has been demonstrated that energy transfer in leaves for photosynthesis depends on quantum effects, so does sense of smell & direction in certain birds IIRC. there is a section on the wikipedia page for this that addresses this with ref links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti... my point is rather simple, IF there is any evolutionary advantage to quantum processes in brain AND these quantum effects are available to ANY exploitable degree then evolution will favor selection of those mechanisms until they become pervasive and lose advantage. so its not really surprising that once the consciousness is aware enough to self reflect, the pace of technological development accelerated exponentially. I do agree that it sounds like new-age BS but that will always be the case, religion with always try to hijack the scientific development but that should not be a deterrent to a lot more research conducted on this really fascinating field.

Psyladine 7y ago

What was genocide if the idiots went to live in computer 'heaven' with catgirl maids and whatever other narcissistic fantasies they cooked up? You're saying like we build a plane to go to mars and then once in space the computer discovers it needs air to move and now we're fucked... why does your first posit on magic petaflops not translate into effective reading of the brain and how it works?

DesiLurker 7y ago
>> You're saying like we build a plane to go to mars and then once in space the computer discovers it needs air to move and now we're fucked... thats inaccurate description of what I said, its more like .. well for a topic like this there really are no good analogies. but to elaborate further (as i hinted) it could be something related to a quantum mechanical state which when you measure you effectively destroy the system and now all you are left with a hollow shell that acts and responds just like the original (so from others pov its the same person, mostly) but in itself its like a psychological zombie. now whether or not it is 'you' (assuming you are the person transported) is again a matter of it being emergent property or innate one. which was the whole point to begin with. simply put, at what resolution a simulation of you becomes 'you'? is it a question of resolution or is there something else to it? given the fact that there are many biological processes that utilize quantum mechanics why is it so far fetched to imagine that consciousness itself could be rooted in QM? >> What was genocide if the idiots went to live in computer 'heaven' with catgirl maids and whatever other narcissistic fantasies they cooked up? If I were to put you in a coma like sleep and then by some pending technological breakthrough cookup whatever fantasies you desire to play eternally in you 'sleep', does that makes it okay? is it same as being alive? I dont think so, even if you are okay with it.

cr0sh 7y ago

> IMO its worth a serious look from biochemistry point of view. I'm not a scientist, and certainly not a quantum physicist. But from what I understand, the main argument against this idea (that is, quantum effects within neurons - or some other biological quantum effect system) is the fact that as far as we know, such quantum effects cannot occur at any temperature near "average human body temperature". If such could be demonstrated, it would upend a massive amount of knowledge in and around QM/QP. But then again, dual-slit experiment? Maybe something is there? Again - far outside my understanding and knowledge, and likely is completely wrong, etc. It might make a good science-fiction plot for a novel or something, though...

DesiLurker 7y ago
>> as far as we know, such quantum effects cannot occur at any temperature thats the too warm wet & noisy argument generally made. AFAIK it has been demonstrated that energy transfer in leaves for photosynthesis depends on quantum effects, so does sense of smell & direction in certain birds IIRC. there is a section on the wikipedia page for this that addresses this with ref links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reducti... my point is rather simple, IF there is any evolutionary advantage to quantum processes in brain AND these quantum effects are available to ANY exploitable degree then evolution will favor selection of those mechanisms until they become pervasive and lose advantage. so its not really surprising that once the consciousness is aware enough to self reflect, the pace of technological development accelerated exponentially. I do agree that it sounds like new-age BS but that will always be the case, religion with always try to hijack the scientific development but that should not be a deterrent to a lot more research conducted on this really fascinating field.