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This analysis is completely missing out on the auteur angle of media production. Games Are Not Art (Yet). Even if they get immensely popular, they will not be a

This analysis is completely missing out on the auteur angle of media production. Games Are Not Art (Yet). Even if they get immensely popular, they will not be as culturally relevant as movies or books. A mind like Orson Welles will never be compelled to make the Citizen Kane of games. I think at some point cookie cutter cinema like Marvel will seamlessly blend into the cultural domain of video games. Movies like that are already video games in cinema form, in a sense. OTOH, there is no equivalent of a video game that is an actual piece of art. (This is all very subjective, I know, but the subjective dimension has to be considered in a discussion about the relevance of a medium)

moretai 7y ago
Sorry to do this, but then what is Art? Movies are made by corporations backed by millions of dollars. There have been incredible moments that I've experienced in video games, whether it be a cutscene, or gameplay. I've been moved to emotion. In awe. Not comparing Kojima to Welles, but isn't MGS his singular vision?
munificent 7y ago
> Games Are Not Art (Yet). But pigment smeared on a piece of wood is? > they will not be as culturally relevant as movies or books. I'm sorry you missed the memo, but games are more culturally relevant than books now. It makes me sad too. > A mind like Orson Welles will never be compelled to make the Citizen Kane of games. This sentence is equivalent to "A mind like Langston Hughes will never be compelled to make the Mulatto of films." Except, well, there is Orson Welles and Citizen Kane, so it's obviously wrong. Your sentence probably is too. Will Wright, Sid Meier, Markus Persson, Shigeru Miyamoto, etc. You may think, "These people are not the stature of Orson Welles", but you'll be hard pressed to come up with a definition of "stature" that isn't basically just equivalent to "I'm trying to evaluate games as if they were movies". Koyaanisqatsi would fare poorly if you evaluated it as if it were a play, but it is certainly art and a good film.
waddlesworth 7y ago
I definitely disagree with this, it sounds like you're only taking into account the big budget titles that the media talks (and complains) about. My favourite story game, Life is Strange from DONTNOD, literally brought me to tears. Going through the Steam reviews, you'll find this is a common reaction. It was still in my mind weeks after I had completed it. Easily the most compelling piece of entertainment (and yes, Art) that I have ever experienced. No movie I have ever watched has solicited that response. Even something like the quest line in Warframe I've found more compelling than most movies (shout out to DE's writers on this one). It's hard to say for Citizen Kane specifically, but I'd wager more people have seen Avengers: Endgame than any particular contemporary equivalent. Just as more people have played Fortnite than either of the games I've mentioned above. You can definitely find truly powerful art in the video game medium, if you're willing to look.
asdf21 7y ago
>A mind like Orson Welles will never be compelled to make the Citizen Kane of games. How would you know something like that?
mntmoss 7y ago
"Citizen Kane of gaming" is a memetic joke in game criticism. Go check out Critical Distance if you want to see an aggregation of lengthy deep thoughts about games. All art is borne of appreciation - and thus literacy. Games are still in a place where literacy is relatively low and the popular vernacular changes with every incoming freshman class and generation of consoles. That doesn't mean that the art does not exist, it means that most people can only temporarily agree upon the most recent instances of it; the others are "not real games". But on the design and development end of things, the vocabulary is gradually establishing itself. Colleges are churning out fresh blood for the industry at a torrid rate now. There are bonafide career veterans with decades of experience guiding them and offering words of wisdom. The industry often gets in the way of the learning by putting so much focus on product(and the subsequent disposability of that product in turn creates a vast catalogue of attempts that go unstudied), but the learning is taking place regardless. I don't think the predictions the article makes are exactly what will happen, regardless. The increasing emphasis on customization is atomizing the production process into ready-made software and assets; in so doing, that inches everyone slightly closer to being developers. It's a gradual philosophical shift that's in motion, here.
Hammershaft 7y ago
I would say already that the most creative minds of younger generations are almost entirely moving to the indie and middle market games industry. In 2019 I played new titles like Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium, Baba is You & Ape Out. I'm about to start playing Heavens Vault & Caves of Qud In comparison, I cannot think of a single tv show or movie that I found to be as innovative, original, or interesting as any of those titles. Movies just had one of the least original and most derivative decades in its history, with funding towards endless superhero sequels crowding out the development of new ips. Tv had a better year than movies but I still can't shake the feeling that I saw nothing as innovative or memorable as I had seen in the video game space, with maybe the exception of Love Death Robots. I think its near impossible to meaningfully discuss which genres have produced art or not without thuroughly defining the word. I would ask this though: have games shown themselves capable of producing the range of experiences that tv & movies can produce? I would argue that not only is the answer unambiguously yes, but that on the flipside games have shown themselves capable of producing experiences that have no analouge in movies or tv. I haven't seen any show that has given me the sense of epiphany I got from discovering the hidden mechanics of the witness, or the level of intellectual engagement I have gotten from Spacechem, or the level of flow I have felt playing arena shooters and platformers.
- drchickensalad 7y ago
  I hope you enjoy caves of qud. Easily the best and most original and beautiful game I've played in years.
mhh__ 7y ago
The level of detail in a game like Grand Theft Auto is almost art in itself, even if the game itself is not an "art game". Some games are indeed not art e.g. FIFA 20, but some games absolutely are e.g. Pathologic (if pathologic is not art then I don't know what is). This ultimately raises the question of what is and isn't art and I believe that if something really speaks to someone playing it then I think it is - many definitions seems prone to pretense and gatekeeping.
MattRix 7y ago
The other commenters have already given you some good responses, so I will leave you to the classic response to the question "When will we see the Citizen Kane of games?" - "When will we see the Tetris of film?"

moretai 7y ago

Sorry to do this, but then what is Art? Movies are made by corporations backed by millions of dollars. There have been incredible moments that I've experienced in video games, whether it be a cutscene, or gameplay. I've been moved to emotion. In awe. Not comparing Kojima to Welles, but isn't MGS his singular vision?

munificent 7y ago

> Games Are Not Art (Yet). But pigment smeared on a piece of wood is? > they will not be as culturally relevant as movies or books. I'm sorry you missed the memo, but games are more culturally relevant than books now. It makes me sad too. > A mind like Orson Welles will never be compelled to make the Citizen Kane of games. This sentence is equivalent to "A mind like Langston Hughes will never be compelled to make the Mulatto of films." Except, well, there is Orson Welles and Citizen Kane, so it's obviously wrong. Your sentence probably is too. Will Wright, Sid Meier, Markus Persson, Shigeru Miyamoto, etc. You may think, "These people are not the stature of Orson Welles", but you'll be hard pressed to come up with a definition of "stature" that isn't basically just equivalent to "I'm trying to evaluate games as if they were movies". Koyaanisqatsi would fare poorly if you evaluated it as if it were a play, but it is certainly art and a good film.

waddlesworth 7y ago

I definitely disagree with this, it sounds like you're only taking into account the big budget titles that the media talks (and complains) about. My favourite story game, Life is Strange from DONTNOD, literally brought me to tears. Going through the Steam reviews, you'll find this is a common reaction. It was still in my mind weeks after I had completed it. Easily the most compelling piece of entertainment (and yes, Art) that I have ever experienced. No movie I have ever watched has solicited that response. Even something like the quest line in Warframe I've found more compelling than most movies (shout out to DE's writers on this one). It's hard to say for Citizen Kane specifically, but I'd wager more people have seen Avengers: Endgame than any particular contemporary equivalent. Just as more people have played Fortnite than either of the games I've mentioned above. You can definitely find truly powerful art in the video game medium, if you're willing to look.

asdf21 7y ago

>A mind like Orson Welles will never be compelled to make the Citizen Kane of games. How would you know something like that?

mntmoss 7y ago

"Citizen Kane of gaming" is a memetic joke in game criticism. Go check out Critical Distance if you want to see an aggregation of lengthy deep thoughts about games. All art is borne of appreciation - and thus literacy. Games are still in a place where literacy is relatively low and the popular vernacular changes with every incoming freshman class and generation of consoles. That doesn't mean that the art does not exist, it means that most people can only temporarily agree upon the most recent instances of it; the others are "not real games". But on the design and development end of things, the vocabulary is gradually establishing itself. Colleges are churning out fresh blood for the industry at a torrid rate now. There are bonafide career veterans with decades of experience guiding them and offering words of wisdom. The industry often gets in the way of the learning by putting so much focus on product(and the subsequent disposability of that product in turn creates a vast catalogue of attempts that go unstudied), but the learning is taking place regardless. I don't think the predictions the article makes are exactly what will happen, regardless. The increasing emphasis on customization is atomizing the production process into ready-made software and assets; in so doing, that inches everyone slightly closer to being developers. It's a gradual philosophical shift that's in motion, here.

Hammershaft 7y ago

I would say already that the most creative minds of younger generations are almost entirely moving to the indie and middle market games industry. In 2019 I played new titles like Outer Wilds, Disco Elysium, Baba is You & Ape Out. I'm about to start playing Heavens Vault & Caves of Qud In comparison, I cannot think of a single tv show or movie that I found to be as innovative, original, or interesting as any of those titles. Movies just had one of the least original and most derivative decades in its history, with funding towards endless superhero sequels crowding out the development of new ips. Tv had a better year than movies but I still can't shake the feeling that I saw nothing as innovative or memorable as I had seen in the video game space, with maybe the exception of Love Death Robots. I think its near impossible to meaningfully discuss which genres have produced art or not without thuroughly defining the word. I would ask this though: have games shown themselves capable of producing the range of experiences that tv & movies can produce? I would argue that not only is the answer unambiguously yes, but that on the flipside games have shown themselves capable of producing experiences that have no analouge in movies or tv. I haven't seen any show that has given me the sense of epiphany I got from discovering the hidden mechanics of the witness, or the level of intellectual engagement I have gotten from Spacechem, or the level of flow I have felt playing arena shooters and platformers.

drchickensalad 7y ago
I hope you enjoy caves of qud. Easily the best and most original and beautiful game I've played in years.

mhh__ 7y ago

The level of detail in a game like Grand Theft Auto is almost art in itself, even if the game itself is not an "art game". Some games are indeed not art e.g. FIFA 20, but some games absolutely are e.g. Pathologic (if pathologic is not art then I don't know what is). This ultimately raises the question of what is and isn't art and I believe that if something really speaks to someone playing it then I think it is - many definitions seems prone to pretense and gatekeeping.

MattRix 7y ago

The other commenters have already given you some good responses, so I will leave you to the classic response to the question "When will we see the Citizen Kane of games?" - "When will we see the Tetris of film?"