3 ms·

this too is a very forced comparison. there are certainly some similarities between the US and Athens, mainly because the founders were obsessed with Athenian p

this too is a very forced comparison. there are certainly some similarities between the US and Athens, mainly because the founders were obsessed with Athenian philosophy and political thought, but there are few parallels to be drawn between the USSR and Sparta or the Peloponnesian and Cold Wars. to start with, the Peloponnesian War was a "hot" war, and Sparta won! the cold war was also very ideological (communism vs capitalism) in a way that would be totally foreign to the people of antiquity. they fought for much more concrete reasons, mainly for immediate defense and to secure access to resources by controlling territory or extracting tribute. Sparta also had little in common with the USSR as a society. it was certainly not egalitarian like the ideal of communism, but neither was it autocratic to the degree of the Soviet Union under Stalin. Sparta had a system of government with two Kings, whose power was checked by a council of elders. we should certainly try to learn from history, but we tend to remember strongly a bunch of superficial details from societies of antiquity that seem familiar to us, and fail to see how alien the ancient world truly was. to directly compare ancient conflicts and states to modern ones is almost always to severely overfit.

nickik 7y ago
> to start with, the Peloponnesian War was a "hot" war Comparing those to wars is actually much more relevant then you might think. Both wars were incredibly long and drawn out conflicts, where it was almost impossible for either side to really win. Both wars the waste majority of the fighting was done in far flung regions (Sicily, Byzantium and so on) and threw trade wars/trade zones. The ended differently, but Persia stepping in and massively involving itself broke the balance. Comparable to if Aliens had just started to finance insane military spending for the USSR. > the cold war was also very ideological (communism vs capitalism) in a way that would be totally foreign to the people of antiquity That is very questionable, we don't have enough data. But the few sources we have do make a very big deal about the cultural differences and later writers pick up that thread. Sparta was saw itself as an explicite representation of the perfect greek state and thus the definition of what civilization was about. Athens is the dynamic new state that stands for a number of new things, democracy, ocean commerce, increase use of money and so on. Both tried to get neutral states to adopt their system of rule, but both were willing to compromise if it made strategic sense (just as the USSR and US did as well). The ideological discussions between those stats were limited because of technology. > they fought for much more concrete reasons, mainly for immediate defense and to secure access to resources by controlling territory or extracting tribute. Arguably that is what the USSR and US also did. In both cases you can make an ideological case and a geostrategic case. And in both cases we have both things being said by some people on either side. > Sparta also had little in common with the USSR as a society. it was certainly not egalitarian like the ideal of communism, but neither was it autocratic to the degree of the Soviet Union under Stalin. Sparta had a system of government with two Kings, whose power was checked by a council of elders. There are also similarities. Both stats supported a massively oversized military and depended on other stats they had conquered to subsidies those expenses. They both had a communal system, rather then a family based one. Or at least the ideal they proclaimed was communal. In Sparta there was a very strong identification with the military units, those men spent lots of time there away from there families even if they could have gone home. Children are not primary educated by the parents but rather by a community/state program that teaches them the 'right' ideals to function perfectly in that system and make the system as a whole stronger. Its not a strong connection but the USSR<->Sparta, Athens<->US lines up pretty rather well.
cryptonector 7y ago
Sparta had 9 slaves for every citizen -- the U.S.S.R. too had very few elites who lived in luxury while everyone else toiled. For the Helots, Spartan society was quite egalitarian... Athens had slaves, but not remotely the same magnitude -- the U.S. had slaves for a few decades. Sparta utterly depended on slaves, but Athens depended on trade. The Peloponnesian war had cold periods, and the U.S. might still turn red -- we've not necessarily seen the end of that struggle. No, the parallels between Sparta/Athens and U.S.S.R./U.S. are a bit uncanny. Yes, there's a limit to how good a comparison can be across 2,300+ years, but it's not useless.

nickik 7y ago

> to start with, the Peloponnesian War was a "hot" war Comparing those to wars is actually much more relevant then you might think. Both wars were incredibly long and drawn out conflicts, where it was almost impossible for either side to really win. Both wars the waste majority of the fighting was done in far flung regions (Sicily, Byzantium and so on) and threw trade wars/trade zones. The ended differently, but Persia stepping in and massively involving itself broke the balance. Comparable to if Aliens had just started to finance insane military spending for the USSR. > the cold war was also very ideological (communism vs capitalism) in a way that would be totally foreign to the people of antiquity That is very questionable, we don't have enough data. But the few sources we have do make a very big deal about the cultural differences and later writers pick up that thread. Sparta was saw itself as an explicite representation of the perfect greek state and thus the definition of what civilization was about. Athens is the dynamic new state that stands for a number of new things, democracy, ocean commerce, increase use of money and so on. Both tried to get neutral states to adopt their system of rule, but both were willing to compromise if it made strategic sense (just as the USSR and US did as well). The ideological discussions between those stats were limited because of technology. > they fought for much more concrete reasons, mainly for immediate defense and to secure access to resources by controlling territory or extracting tribute. Arguably that is what the USSR and US also did. In both cases you can make an ideological case and a geostrategic case. And in both cases we have both things being said by some people on either side. > Sparta also had little in common with the USSR as a society. it was certainly not egalitarian like the ideal of communism, but neither was it autocratic to the degree of the Soviet Union under Stalin. Sparta had a system of government with two Kings, whose power was checked by a council of elders. There are also similarities. Both stats supported a massively oversized military and depended on other stats they had conquered to subsidies those expenses. They both had a communal system, rather then a family based one. Or at least the ideal they proclaimed was communal. In Sparta there was a very strong identification with the military units, those men spent lots of time there away from there families even if they could have gone home. Children are not primary educated by the parents but rather by a community/state program that teaches them the 'right' ideals to function perfectly in that system and make the system as a whole stronger. Its not a strong connection but the USSR<->Sparta, Athens<->US lines up pretty rather well.

cryptonector 7y ago

Sparta had 9 slaves for every citizen -- the U.S.S.R. too had very few elites who lived in luxury while everyone else toiled. For the Helots, Spartan society was quite egalitarian... Athens had slaves, but not remotely the same magnitude -- the U.S. had slaves for a few decades. Sparta utterly depended on slaves, but Athens depended on trade. The Peloponnesian war had cold periods, and the U.S. might still turn red -- we've not necessarily seen the end of that struggle. No, the parallels between Sparta/Athens and U.S.S.R./U.S. are a bit uncanny. Yes, there's a limit to how good a comparison can be across 2,300+ years, but it's not useless.