6 ms·

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

by fleitz 16y ago

jerf 16y ago
“There can be no such thing, in law or in morality, as actions forbidden to an individual, but permitted to a mob” - Ayn Rand
- fleitz 16y ago
  Definitely agree with you I'd hate to see Anonymous individuals restricted from actions that HBGary, its subsidiaries, its employees, and clients take.
- cagenut 16y ago
  "the opposite of anything ayn rand says" -me
  - jerf 16y ago
    Which specific thing should be permitted to only mobs that is not permitted of individuals? Or is that a vacuous snark?
    - njharman 16y ago
      Taxing, ownership of life fundamentals (land, air, water), rearing/teaching of young, use of electromagnetic spectrum, governing. But, I'm a socialist. Would also use the terms family, tribe, society, etc. instead of the purposefully biased "mob".
      - jerf 16y ago
        To be honest, I'm a bit surprised at the number of people who had a difficult time identifying who I mean. I'm actually a little-l libertarian and no great lover of government, so I understand the knee-jerk inclination, but why would I be stretching for the definition of a mob when there is another thing that can be called a "mob" in the story with no stretch at all?
      - cookiecaper 16y ago
        Taxation on things is a normal thing that is allowed to all individual entities within their sphere of control. If you own some item, you can effectively set up any taxation system on the usage of that item that you want. The governmental entity is allowed taxation powers because the people under its authority utilize its public benefits, such as police work, court systems, legislative considerations, and so on. Likewise control of commons exists on an individual level as well -- if you are near a certain amount of water, you are generally free to own and control it. To the extent that you don't secure and maintain your property, your ownership is a vain deed. Rearing and teaching of young is a really easy one, commonly given to individuals. Do you think all children should be taken out of individual households and placed in government-run child-rearing centers? That's what this one sounds like, and that is horrifically scary and ridiculous.
- Charuru 16y ago
  Define mob? It's ok for the government to imprison people. But when I do it it's called kidnapping. Edit: Just to clarify, I agree if you mean mob as in an actual mob. However you're replying to a parent who's talking about government, so that led me to think you're implying government is some form of a mob. A representative government with powers endowed to them by the people and working within the limits of a codified legal system is very different from a mob.
  - sgrove 16y ago
    I took it that the OP was referring to Anonymous as a mob... which is essentially one of the big draws of huge mobs - their anonymity. Although I'm intrigued by the whole drama unfolding, I don't know that we can say there's justice/liberty in what the mob does if when one person did the same thing we'd say otherwise.
    - jerf 16y ago
      Yes. It makes me very uncomfortable when the fact that "Anonymous" is committing some fairly serious crimes is apparently just glossed over because hey, we didn't like the target, so thumbs up! It also makes me uncomfortable that I'm a bit nervous posting this point. This is not progress. This is not good. This is mob rule. We should be fighting this, not applauding it.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        sigzero 16y ago
        Um no. What they did was illegal. When you stoop to that level you aren't any better than the people your are trying to give the lesson to.
        sage_joch 16y ago
        You shouldn't confuse legality with morality. Pointing out that something is illegal is not a very compelling argument that it's wrong. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound to chastise the Egyptians for breaking their curfew.
- heed 16y ago
  What about 'being a mob'?
- pyre 16y ago
  If a mob overthrows the government that means that there were a lot of people upset with the government and it can be taken as the 'will of the people.' If a single person overthrows a government it could be seen as a dictatorship. I think that the Rand-ian sound byte fails here.
- gwern 16y ago
  > "What is the government? nothing, unless supported by opinion." --Napoleon Bonaparte
- Xurinos 16y ago
  "Don't live your life according to quotes." -- Keith Malley
amadiver 16y ago
I'm curious as to why you don't see Anon's actions as mob justice? Or if you do, why that's okay?
- fleitz 16y ago
  From where should a justice system derive its just powers? Why is mob justice any worse than a justice system that allows people to be held indefinitely with out charge? Why is mob justice any worse than a system that allows secret evidence which cannot be questioned or examined by the accused? Would altering or abolishing a system that allows people to be held indefinitely with out charge be a good thing? Either the justice system approves of this, or the rules of the system prevent it from taking action, either way it's broken.
  - spxdcz 16y ago
    Why have people downvoted fletiz's response to -1? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it (I'm staying neutral in this discussion), but please - stop downvoting replies that you disagree with. This response, as far as I can see, was reasonable and considered.
    - fleitz 16y ago
      It's no biggie, the reaction is quite what I expected given Plato's parable of the Cave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ
    - mbateman 16y ago
      I've never understood the idea that downvoting a comment for disagreeing with it is bad. Anyway, I also disagree that it's reasonable and considered. The comparisons are flip and cheap and build in false alternatives. Not all methods of altering or abolishing unjust systems are laudable, and finding anonymous to be reprehensible is compatible with agreeing that some of their targets are reprehensible also.
      - 16y ago

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

by fleitz 16y ago

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

jerf 16y ago

“There can be no such thing, in law or in morality, as actions forbidden to an individual, but permitted to a mob” - Ayn Rand

fleitz 16y ago
Definitely agree with you I'd hate to see Anonymous individuals restricted from actions that HBGary, its subsidiaries, its employees, and clients take.
cagenut 16y ago
"the opposite of anything ayn rand says" -me
- jerf 16y ago
  Which specific thing should be permitted to only mobs that is not permitted of individuals? Or is that a vacuous snark?
  - njharman 16y ago
    Taxing, ownership of life fundamentals (land, air, water), rearing/teaching of young, use of electromagnetic spectrum, governing. But, I'm a socialist. Would also use the terms family, tribe, society, etc. instead of the purposefully biased "mob".
    - jerf 16y ago
      To be honest, I'm a bit surprised at the number of people who had a difficult time identifying who I mean. I'm actually a little-l libertarian and no great lover of government, so I understand the knee-jerk inclination, but why would I be stretching for the definition of a mob when there is another thing that can be called a "mob" in the story with no stretch at all?
    - cookiecaper 16y ago
      Taxation on things is a normal thing that is allowed to all individual entities within their sphere of control. If you own some item, you can effectively set up any taxation system on the usage of that item that you want. The governmental entity is allowed taxation powers because the people under its authority utilize its public benefits, such as police work, court systems, legislative considerations, and so on. Likewise control of commons exists on an individual level as well -- if you are near a certain amount of water, you are generally free to own and control it. To the extent that you don't secure and maintain your property, your ownership is a vain deed. Rearing and teaching of young is a really easy one, commonly given to individuals. Do you think all children should be taken out of individual households and placed in government-run child-rearing centers? That's what this one sounds like, and that is horrifically scary and ridiculous.
Charuru 16y ago
Define mob? It's ok for the government to imprison people. But when I do it it's called kidnapping. Edit: Just to clarify, I agree if you mean mob as in an actual mob. However you're replying to a parent who's talking about government, so that led me to think you're implying government is some form of a mob. A representative government with powers endowed to them by the people and working within the limits of a codified legal system is very different from a mob.
- sgrove 16y ago
  I took it that the OP was referring to Anonymous as a mob... which is essentially one of the big draws of huge mobs - their anonymity. Although I'm intrigued by the whole drama unfolding, I don't know that we can say there's justice/liberty in what the mob does if when one person did the same thing we'd say otherwise.
  - jerf 16y ago
    Yes. It makes me very uncomfortable when the fact that "Anonymous" is committing some fairly serious crimes is apparently just glossed over because hey, we didn't like the target, so thumbs up! It also makes me uncomfortable that I'm a bit nervous posting this point. This is not progress. This is not good. This is mob rule. We should be fighting this, not applauding it.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
      - sigzero 16y ago
        Um no. What they did was illegal. When you stoop to that level you aren't any better than the people your are trying to give the lesson to.
        sage_joch 16y ago
        You shouldn't confuse legality with morality. Pointing out that something is illegal is not a very compelling argument that it's wrong. Imagine how ridiculous it would sound to chastise the Egyptians for breaking their curfew.
heed 16y ago
What about 'being a mob'?
pyre 16y ago
If a mob overthrows the government that means that there were a lot of people upset with the government and it can be taken as the 'will of the people.' If a single person overthrows a government it could be seen as a dictatorship. I think that the Rand-ian sound byte fails here.
gwern 16y ago
> "What is the government? nothing, unless supported by opinion." --Napoleon Bonaparte
Xurinos 16y ago
"Don't live your life according to quotes." -- Keith Malley

amadiver 16y ago

I'm curious as to why you don't see Anon's actions as mob justice? Or if you do, why that's okay?

fleitz 16y ago
From where should a justice system derive its just powers? Why is mob justice any worse than a justice system that allows people to be held indefinitely with out charge? Why is mob justice any worse than a system that allows secret evidence which cannot be questioned or examined by the accused? Would altering or abolishing a system that allows people to be held indefinitely with out charge be a good thing? Either the justice system approves of this, or the rules of the system prevent it from taking action, either way it's broken.
- spxdcz 16y ago
  Why have people downvoted fletiz's response to -1? I don't necessarily agree or disagree with it (I'm staying neutral in this discussion), but please - stop downvoting replies that you disagree with. This response, as far as I can see, was reasonable and considered.
  - fleitz 16y ago
    It's no biggie, the reaction is quite what I expected given Plato's parable of the Cave. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ
  - mbateman 16y ago
    I've never understood the idea that downvoting a comment for disagreeing with it is bad. Anyway, I also disagree that it's reasonable and considered. The comparisons are flip and cheap and build in false alternatives. Not all methods of altering or abolishing unjust systems are laudable, and finding anonymous to be reprehensible is compatible with agreeing that some of their targets are reprehensible also.
    - 16y ago