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> You seem to be misunderstanding the question of consciousness. It's not about how you observe others to appear conscious, but about how you yourself observe y

by kypro 7y ago

> You seem to be misunderstanding the question of consciousness. It's not about how you observe others to appear conscious, but about how you yourself observe your own consciousness. Well yeah, I experience something which I understand to be a conscious experience, but I don't think it's real. I accept there is an experience of consciousness, but I don't see any reason to believe it is real even though I think I experience it. > Who is "us"? Or, to be more precise, if your brain tells you that you're experiencing pain, than what is "you", and what is "experiencing"? That's the question of consciousness. I think my brain is sensing pain and telling me to perceive the pain in the context of "self". I've never understood why some people don't think this logically consistent honestly. It seems like the only possible explanation unless you start assuming consciousness is a metaphysical, almost magical thing. > You'll probably say that they're both not conscious, although there is no hard evidence either way. And that's because we don't know how to reliably observe consciousness. This isn't a good argument. There's no hard evidence that there isn't an invisible elephant sat next to you right now. I don't understand why you are even assuming that there might be something such as consciousness? There is literally no objective physical evidence for it, where as there is mass amounts of data to show neurologically it's probably an illusion. Really all I am saying is that I don't think we should believe our minds when they tell us our experiences are important because we are so bias, and there are clear evolutionary incentives for us to think that way.

adwn 7y ago
> Well yeah, I experience something which I understand to be a conscious experience, but I don't think it's real. To paraphrase, you're saying that you experience an experience, but this experience isn't real, therefore you're not experiencing it. This is a contradiction, and it doesn't make sense: Consciousness is the act of experiencing something, even if this "something" is not real. For example, experiencing a drug-induced hallucination is still a real phenomenon, even if the content of the hallucination is not real. > I think my brain is sensing pain and telling me to perceive the pain in the context of "self". You're using the words "I"/"me" and "perceive". Consciousness is the "I" that "perceives". > This isn't a good argument. There's no hard evidence that there isn't an invisible elephant sat next to you right now. I have (soft) evidence that I have a consciousness. I cannot share this evidence with you, therefore it is not hard evidence – this is the as yet unsurmountable problem with consciousness. In contrast, I have neither hard nor soft evidence that there's an invisible elephant next to me. I'm sorry, I don't know how to explain this phenomenon to you. Maybe you're not conscious, and I'm figuratively trying to explain colors to a blind person. I consider it much more likely, however, that you're in denial of the evidence you have right in front of your inner eye.
- kypro 7y ago
  > To paraphrase, you're saying that you experience an experience, but this experience isn't real, therefore you're not experiencing it. This is a contradiction, and it doesn't make sense: Consciousness is the act of experiencing something, even if this "something" is not real. For example, experiencing a drug-induced hallucination is still a real phenomenon, even if the content of the hallucination is not real. I'm not great with words at the best of times, but I really struggle to convey my thoughts on this subject. I probably shouldn't have used the word experience here. Try this: I perceive something which I understand to be a conscious experience, but I don't think it's real. I think a computer with a webcam perceives, or "experiences" something in some sense of the word. I think the only difference is that humans experience these things through a concept of a self. > I have (soft) evidence that I have a consciousness. I cannot share this evidence with you, therefore it is not hard evidence – this is the as yet unsurmountable problem with consciousness. I'd say you have an intuitive conception which you're claiming is evidence. And I get why you think that because I think I'm conscious too. As I type these words and look at my monitor now I too have this experience of a me, or an I, perceiving and doing something. Perhaps what you're asking is why this experience that I'm describing exists rather than nothing? And I think the simple answer to that is that if you perceived the world as if you were unconscious then you would perceive others and yourself as morally insignificant. Your brain kind of has to say: Hey! Look at these things you're sensing, thinking and doing! That's you. And what's more there are others like you that can also experience hurt and other emotions. If your brain doesn't say that you might as well kill yourself because pain and happiness are just boolean variables and not really manifestable experiences. Or in my opinion, illusions.

by kypro 7y ago

adwn 7y ago

> Well yeah, I experience something which I understand to be a conscious experience, but I don't think it's real. To paraphrase, you're saying that you experience an experience, but this experience isn't real, therefore you're not experiencing it. This is a contradiction, and it doesn't make sense: Consciousness is the act of experiencing something, even if this "something" is not real. For example, experiencing a drug-induced hallucination is still a real phenomenon, even if the content of the hallucination is not real. > I think my brain is sensing pain and telling me to perceive the pain in the context of "self". You're using the words "I"/"me" and "perceive". Consciousness is the "I" that "perceives". > This isn't a good argument. There's no hard evidence that there isn't an invisible elephant sat next to you right now. I have (soft) evidence that I have a consciousness. I cannot share this evidence with you, therefore it is not hard evidence – this is the as yet unsurmountable problem with consciousness. In contrast, I have neither hard nor soft evidence that there's an invisible elephant next to me. I'm sorry, I don't know how to explain this phenomenon to you. Maybe you're not conscious, and I'm figuratively trying to explain colors to a blind person. I consider it much more likely, however, that you're in denial of the evidence you have right in front of your inner eye.

kypro 7y ago
> To paraphrase, you're saying that you experience an experience, but this experience isn't real, therefore you're not experiencing it. This is a contradiction, and it doesn't make sense: Consciousness is the act of experiencing something, even if this "something" is not real. For example, experiencing a drug-induced hallucination is still a real phenomenon, even if the content of the hallucination is not real. I'm not great with words at the best of times, but I really struggle to convey my thoughts on this subject. I probably shouldn't have used the word experience here. Try this: I perceive something which I understand to be a conscious experience, but I don't think it's real. I think a computer with a webcam perceives, or "experiences" something in some sense of the word. I think the only difference is that humans experience these things through a concept of a self. > I have (soft) evidence that I have a consciousness. I cannot share this evidence with you, therefore it is not hard evidence – this is the as yet unsurmountable problem with consciousness. I'd say you have an intuitive conception which you're claiming is evidence. And I get why you think that because I think I'm conscious too. As I type these words and look at my monitor now I too have this experience of a me, or an I, perceiving and doing something. Perhaps what you're asking is why this experience that I'm describing exists rather than nothing? And I think the simple answer to that is that if you perceived the world as if you were unconscious then you would perceive others and yourself as morally insignificant. Your brain kind of has to say: Hey! Look at these things you're sensing, thinking and doing! That's you. And what's more there are others like you that can also experience hurt and other emotions. If your brain doesn't say that you might as well kill yourself because pain and happiness are just boolean variables and not really manifestable experiences. Or in my opinion, illusions.