4 ms·

The US is not best compared with Rome but with China. China never collapsed like Rome but it stagnated. GDP is not a great measure of the vitality of an Empire.

The US is not best compared with Rome but with China. China never collapsed like Rome but it stagnated. GDP is not a great measure of the vitality of an Empire. When Great Britain humiliated China with its gun boats, British GDP relative to Chinese GDP was similar to today. Japan was able to take large parts of China despite lower GDP. The danger for the US is the same as the danger was for China and many other empires. It is growing complacency and arrogance. China fell behind Europe because it did not think anybody else had anything to teach China. America is on a similar path. Look at things like US health care discussions, gun crime etc. Americans do not think anybody else can teach them anything about these matters. The US is a science and tech leader, yet its government and institutions are growing increasingly dysfunctional. When I lived in the US I was surprised by how extremely old fashion government seemed to operate. It felt more like my own country 100 years ago. And there seems to be little willingness in the US to upgrade and improve government. Americans cling to this ida that in 1776 America came up with the most awesome government ever and there is no need to ever change. The constitution is becoming much like the Bible, holy scripture to be followed to the letter, and never altered. Nostalgia about the past is a dangerous thing. Trump is just a harbinger of what is to come. Voting out Trump changes nothing. His base will not change and they will fight to install a new Trump next time they get a chance. That may very well be a far more dangerous character. You have essentially one of Americas large well established parties gradually turning into a sort of Fascist party and the American system has no tools or methods to deal with it. Much like the Weimar republic it flaps around helplessly with no idea of how to deal with angry extremism. But as you say America is very rich, so decline will take a long time. However a rich country consumed by internal conflict and political dysfunction will eventually stop being a player on the international arena. America has always had strength in rallying other countries and western powers behind it. Should it loose that ability or get face western nations partially hostile to it, then the reach of American power will diminish.

blaser-waffle 7y ago
> China never collapsed like Rome but it stagnated Wut. China collapsed into warring states and feuding warlords several times. Various northern invaders also showed up at multiple points in their history as well. > China fell behind Europe because it did not think anybody else had anything to teach China China fell behind because the KMT and CCP fought a decades long civil war that was interrupted by the Japanese raping the country. Then the CCP took over and launched disastrous attempts at industrialization and cultural reform (The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution) that killed millions and stalled progress. It was only after Deng Xiaoping Thought and "Socialism With Chinese Characteristics" became a thing that China rocketed back to it's role as a big player.
- restalis 7y ago
  Although I agree with your arguments as the cause China stagnated in 20th century, I think that what socialdemocrat referrs to is China under the last period of Qing dinasty (e.g. Yizhu, Zaichun, Zaitian, and other emperors).
- socialdemocrat 7y ago
  Yes I know China has had several civil wars, but it was never rendered permanently too weak to ever rise again like Rome. But yeah I agree I was not wording myself very clearly there. > China fell behind because the KMT and CCP fought a decades long civil war that was interrupted by the Japanese raping the country. I disagree. At that point China had already fallen way behind. The KMT and CCP was fighting in large part because China had already stagnated and failed to keep up with European powers. When China got humiliated by Britain in the opium wars it was already a failed empire. Long before KMT and CCP western powers started carving out their own enclaves in China. They had whole city sections where Chinese where not allowed. China was being humiliated on home turf by the west. Relative to the west China was not that different from today in terms of economy when this happened. The west could not outright take China. However the technological advantage the west held in maritime warfare meant that western powers could cause massive damage in China without them having a way of retaliating.

blaser-waffle 7y ago

> China never collapsed like Rome but it stagnated Wut. China collapsed into warring states and feuding warlords several times. Various northern invaders also showed up at multiple points in their history as well. > China fell behind Europe because it did not think anybody else had anything to teach China China fell behind because the KMT and CCP fought a decades long civil war that was interrupted by the Japanese raping the country. Then the CCP took over and launched disastrous attempts at industrialization and cultural reform (The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution) that killed millions and stalled progress. It was only after Deng Xiaoping Thought and "Socialism With Chinese Characteristics" became a thing that China rocketed back to it's role as a big player.

restalis 7y ago
Although I agree with your arguments as the cause China stagnated in 20th century, I think that what socialdemocrat referrs to is China under the last period of Qing dinasty (e.g. Yizhu, Zaichun, Zaitian, and other emperors).
socialdemocrat 7y ago
Yes I know China has had several civil wars, but it was never rendered permanently too weak to ever rise again like Rome. But yeah I agree I was not wording myself very clearly there. > China fell behind because the KMT and CCP fought a decades long civil war that was interrupted by the Japanese raping the country. I disagree. At that point China had already fallen way behind. The KMT and CCP was fighting in large part because China had already stagnated and failed to keep up with European powers. When China got humiliated by Britain in the opium wars it was already a failed empire. Long before KMT and CCP western powers started carving out their own enclaves in China. They had whole city sections where Chinese where not allowed. China was being humiliated on home turf by the west. Relative to the west China was not that different from today in terms of economy when this happened. The west could not outright take China. However the technological advantage the west held in maritime warfare meant that western powers could cause massive damage in China without them having a way of retaliating.