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> And why in the world would (...) people being systems to be optimized rule out treating people with respect, empathy, and kindness. Because seeing people as

by mnsc 7y ago

> And why in the world would (...) people being systems to be optimized rule out treating people with respect, empathy, and kindness. Because seeing people as systems to be optimized is per definition dehumanizing which is an action that is not respectful or empathetic?

CapricornNoble 7y ago
Have you ever told a woman, after coitus, how you ran the same Game on them that you've run dozens of times before? Did they get pissed and never talk to you again? I'm going to guess "no", at least neither I nor anyone I know has had that happen. They'll usually just laugh it off / not take it seriously. The empathy and connection has been built successfully, and no amount of ex post facto chastisement about "hey you were just dehumanized and disrespected" tends to register.
- anbotero 7y ago
  I’m beginning to believe people is pissed because the example was dating, and now they think the whole argument was how some people can be made to do/feel things, instead of a miserable simple example on how even people is a system that can be analyzed (to a certain extend)
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    HN gets weird about dating-related subjects IMO. Any other topic seems to embrace analysis, exchanging and comparing anecdotes/techniques, and "life hacks", but sex and relationships? Whoa boy, better don your flame suit first...
- reroute1 7y ago
  That's a terrible example and yes many people would be offended by that and not "laught it off", that is highly dependent on the individual and situation. Just because you made a connection doesn't mean you can't destroy it just as easily, by say pointing out the shallow nature of your connection.
  - CapricornNoble 7y ago
    >>>That's a terrible example and yes many people would be offended by that and not "laught it off" Here's the thing: there is a HUGE gulf between how people SAY they will react in that (or a similar) situation, and how they ACTUALLY react. That's why I explicitly asked for actual experiences, not hypotheticals. It's the same thing with the legion of women on Tinder who put "No hookups" in their profile and still have sex on the first date. Actions speak louder than words. Anyone who takes their profile at face value would draw erroneous conclusions about their dating proclivities. Conclusions which are easily debunked by accumulating a significantly large base of in-the-flesh (pun intended) encounters. >>>Just because you made a connection doesn't mean you can't destroy it just as easily, by say pointing out the shallow nature of your connection. How are you making a determination that a connection built (however-quickly) on well-rehearsed techniques is "shallow"? Is a connection shallow if years later the other party is still blowing up your phone pining for you? What are the metrics used to assess shallowness?
    - reroute1 7y ago
      Are you seriously asking me about metrics? You're entire post is a bunch of anecdotes. I'm not basing my response off of any real data and neither are you. > The empathy and connection has been built successfully, and no amount of ex post facto chastisement about "hey you were just dehumanized and disrespected" tends to register. This doesn't even make sense. You call it chastisement but then put dehumanized and disprespected in quotes. Why? Are you disagreeing that it's dehumanizing? Or that it actually is dehumanizing and disrespectful, but that doesn't matter at this point? I can tell you personally that 1. If it's the case that you disagree in it being dehumanizing. Fine, that is your opinion. I disagree and think it is dehumanizing and if someone said that to me after sex I would be pissed and lose interest. How about myself for a reference no data needed. This isn't just about Women on tinder. 2. If it's the case that you agree it's dehumanizing, but because empathy and connection have been built it doesn't matter. Again it's your opinion that it doesn't matter after a connection has been built and I disagree strongly. If you think I'm the only human who disagrees ok... I don't know what the numbers are, and I even stated in another post that there's nothing wrong an approach like this, but some people will clearly see it differently
tomp 7y ago
I can have empathetic and respectful goals and use systems and optimisation to achieve them. Take sex for example. As a heterosexual man, I’ve no idea what’s intrinsically pleasurable to women. I think that giving sexual pleasure is a respectul, empathetic intention. Given this goal, I can use systematic approach to satisfy it (find pleasure trigger points and apply them).
- reroute1 7y ago
  Where is your systemic approach and optimization in this example? You haven't given any information on the approach other than find pleasure points. That's not using systems and optimization, so no it's not dehumanizing. If on the other hand you carefully studied adult films, read the kama sutra, and practiced this at every opportunity you might have a systemic approach. And if your partner learned about this I don't think anyone could be called silly for feeling dehumanized by it. This is basically the approach that most people take to some extent, but that doesn't mean you want to advertise how you looked at a huge population and deduced effective methods of sexual pleasure. Of course some men or women may have no problem with this approach, but that is highly dependent on the individual and many people would feel dehumanized by it or uncomfortable with it. Sex is actually a good example because there are often strong personal feelings, even love associated with it. Again it might be counter-intuitive, like how else are people supposed to figure these things out? But at the same time that fact can be very dehumanizing and seem disrespectful to disclose your "process" if it involved a lot of systematic optimization. Not very lovey dovey.
  - tomp 7y ago
    Not porn and Kamasutra in particular, but yeah I’ve read books, blogs, Reddit, ... definitely experimented a bit (not at every opportunity though). Just because people cringe at some information doesn’t make the whole thing dehumanizing. You’re right though that most people don’t want to know how the sausage / burger is made...
    - reroute1 7y ago
      I agree if someone goes about this approach and is respectful of everyone along the way it's not necessarily dehumanizing and there's nothing wrong with it, but regardless it may feel dehumanizing to the person to find out about since that's more about recognizing and optimizing patterns, and less about their individual uniqueness. For most people it's not really that extreme and to some extent this has to be allowed for. That's the tricky part especially with sex, you want someone who is good at it, but that typically comes with experience. That may make some people uncomfortable. Find a good balance and just call it what it is, young people living life. But it's also a good warning to not "over optimize" and spend all your time going down that route because then some people would rightfully question that kind of behavior. I know I don't want a partner with thousands of sexcapades.

by mnsc 7y ago

CapricornNoble 7y ago

Have you ever told a woman, after coitus, how you ran the same Game on them that you've run dozens of times before? Did they get pissed and never talk to you again? I'm going to guess "no", at least neither I nor anyone I know has had that happen. They'll usually just laugh it off / not take it seriously. The empathy and connection has been built successfully, and no amount of ex post facto chastisement about "hey you were just dehumanized and disrespected" tends to register.

anbotero 7y ago
I’m beginning to believe people is pissed because the example was dating, and now they think the whole argument was how some people can be made to do/feel things, instead of a miserable simple example on how even people is a system that can be analyzed (to a certain extend)
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  HN gets weird about dating-related subjects IMO. Any other topic seems to embrace analysis, exchanging and comparing anecdotes/techniques, and "life hacks", but sex and relationships? Whoa boy, better don your flame suit first...
reroute1 7y ago
That's a terrible example and yes many people would be offended by that and not "laught it off", that is highly dependent on the individual and situation. Just because you made a connection doesn't mean you can't destroy it just as easily, by say pointing out the shallow nature of your connection.
- CapricornNoble 7y ago
  >>>That's a terrible example and yes many people would be offended by that and not "laught it off" Here's the thing: there is a HUGE gulf between how people SAY they will react in that (or a similar) situation, and how they ACTUALLY react. That's why I explicitly asked for actual experiences, not hypotheticals. It's the same thing with the legion of women on Tinder who put "No hookups" in their profile and still have sex on the first date. Actions speak louder than words. Anyone who takes their profile at face value would draw erroneous conclusions about their dating proclivities. Conclusions which are easily debunked by accumulating a significantly large base of in-the-flesh (pun intended) encounters. >>>Just because you made a connection doesn't mean you can't destroy it just as easily, by say pointing out the shallow nature of your connection. How are you making a determination that a connection built (however-quickly) on well-rehearsed techniques is "shallow"? Is a connection shallow if years later the other party is still blowing up your phone pining for you? What are the metrics used to assess shallowness?
  - reroute1 7y ago
    Are you seriously asking me about metrics? You're entire post is a bunch of anecdotes. I'm not basing my response off of any real data and neither are you. > The empathy and connection has been built successfully, and no amount of ex post facto chastisement about "hey you were just dehumanized and disrespected" tends to register. This doesn't even make sense. You call it chastisement but then put dehumanized and disprespected in quotes. Why? Are you disagreeing that it's dehumanizing? Or that it actually is dehumanizing and disrespectful, but that doesn't matter at this point? I can tell you personally that 1. If it's the case that you disagree in it being dehumanizing. Fine, that is your opinion. I disagree and think it is dehumanizing and if someone said that to me after sex I would be pissed and lose interest. How about myself for a reference no data needed. This isn't just about Women on tinder. 2. If it's the case that you agree it's dehumanizing, but because empathy and connection have been built it doesn't matter. Again it's your opinion that it doesn't matter after a connection has been built and I disagree strongly. If you think I'm the only human who disagrees ok... I don't know what the numbers are, and I even stated in another post that there's nothing wrong an approach like this, but some people will clearly see it differently

tomp 7y ago

I can have empathetic and respectful goals and use systems and optimisation to achieve them. Take sex for example. As a heterosexual man, I’ve no idea what’s intrinsically pleasurable to women. I think that giving sexual pleasure is a respectul, empathetic intention. Given this goal, I can use systematic approach to satisfy it (find pleasure trigger points and apply them).

reroute1 7y ago
Where is your systemic approach and optimization in this example? You haven't given any information on the approach other than find pleasure points. That's not using systems and optimization, so no it's not dehumanizing. If on the other hand you carefully studied adult films, read the kama sutra, and practiced this at every opportunity you might have a systemic approach. And if your partner learned about this I don't think anyone could be called silly for feeling dehumanized by it. This is basically the approach that most people take to some extent, but that doesn't mean you want to advertise how you looked at a huge population and deduced effective methods of sexual pleasure. Of course some men or women may have no problem with this approach, but that is highly dependent on the individual and many people would feel dehumanized by it or uncomfortable with it. Sex is actually a good example because there are often strong personal feelings, even love associated with it. Again it might be counter-intuitive, like how else are people supposed to figure these things out? But at the same time that fact can be very dehumanizing and seem disrespectful to disclose your "process" if it involved a lot of systematic optimization. Not very lovey dovey.
- tomp 7y ago
  Not porn and Kamasutra in particular, but yeah I’ve read books, blogs, Reddit, ... definitely experimented a bit (not at every opportunity though). Just because people cringe at some information doesn’t make the whole thing dehumanizing. You’re right though that most people don’t want to know how the sausage / burger is made...
  - reroute1 7y ago
    I agree if someone goes about this approach and is respectful of everyone along the way it's not necessarily dehumanizing and there's nothing wrong with it, but regardless it may feel dehumanizing to the person to find out about since that's more about recognizing and optimizing patterns, and less about their individual uniqueness. For most people it's not really that extreme and to some extent this has to be allowed for. That's the tricky part especially with sex, you want someone who is good at it, but that typically comes with experience. That may make some people uncomfortable. Find a good balance and just call it what it is, young people living life. But it's also a good warning to not "over optimize" and spend all your time going down that route because then some people would rightfully question that kind of behavior. I know I don't want a partner with thousands of sexcapades.