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I think you are simplifying the concept of consciousness a bit too much and are too hard in the paint for a very un-nuanced interpretation of behavioralism. Yo

by platz 7y ago

I think you are simplifying the concept of consciousness a bit too much and are too hard in the paint for a very un-nuanced interpretation of behavioralism. Your position would be better described as consciousness is an illusion or consciousness does not exist. It has compelling elements but I find it a hard sell.

ajuc 7y ago
Thanks I've learned a new idiom. Yes I am pretty confident that there isn't "conscious force" and "consciousness equations". Because we would have encountered them already if they were there. So we're not arguing new physics, just adding stuff to our model of universe that changes nothing. > Your position would be better described as consciousness is an illusion or consciousness does not exist. I don't think turbulent water doesn't exist. I just think it's not some fundamental concept, just an emergent phenomenon that we can explain basing on currently known laws of physics if we're smart enough. > It has compelling elements but I find it a hard sell. Why?
- platz 7y ago
  Because it doesn't explain my experience. You can still be a materialist and allow for consciousness via emergence, but that is not quite the argument you are making.
  - platz 7y ago
    If if emergence is right, you should be not so confident about it because it is an extremely delicate position with also a lot of handwavimg and question marks
  - ajuc 7y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's the argument I'm making? 1. consciousness isn't fundamental, it's a consequence of normal physics 2. because it's not fundamental the definitions will always be arbitrary, just like with any other emergent phenomena (when does fog stop and rain start? At which height does atmosphere end? What is a planet)? All just labels and arbitrary thresholds slapped on some consequences of laws of physics. > it is an extremely delicate position with also a lot of handwavimg and question marks At least i'm not making untestable assumptions. If we can make a perfect copy of a brain and it doesn't work then I'm wrong. I prefer my theories to be delicate - that means they can be disproven. The alternative is "because magic".

by platz 7y ago

ajuc 7y ago

Thanks I've learned a new idiom. Yes I am pretty confident that there isn't "conscious force" and "consciousness equations". Because we would have encountered them already if they were there. So we're not arguing new physics, just adding stuff to our model of universe that changes nothing. > Your position would be better described as consciousness is an illusion or consciousness does not exist. I don't think turbulent water doesn't exist. I just think it's not some fundamental concept, just an emergent phenomenon that we can explain basing on currently known laws of physics if we're smart enough. > It has compelling elements but I find it a hard sell. Why?

platz 7y ago
Because it doesn't explain my experience. You can still be a materialist and allow for consciousness via emergence, but that is not quite the argument you are making.
- platz 7y ago
  If if emergence is right, you should be not so confident about it because it is an extremely delicate position with also a lot of handwavimg and question marks
- ajuc 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's the argument I'm making? 1. consciousness isn't fundamental, it's a consequence of normal physics 2. because it's not fundamental the definitions will always be arbitrary, just like with any other emergent phenomena (when does fog stop and rain start? At which height does atmosphere end? What is a planet)? All just labels and arbitrary thresholds slapped on some consequences of laws of physics. > it is an extremely delicate position with also a lot of handwavimg and question marks At least i'm not making untestable assumptions. If we can make a perfect copy of a brain and it doesn't work then I'm wrong. I prefer my theories to be delicate - that means they can be disproven. The alternative is "because magic".