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I think non-duality / advaita makes much more sense than panpsychism, as it requires less assumptions while remaining compatible with our experience. Panpsychi

I think non-duality / advaita makes much more sense than panpsychism, as it requires less assumptions while remaining compatible with our experience. Panpsychism seems like a bandaid to solve the hard problem of consciousness, which non-duality does not suffer from.

empath75 7y ago
> Panpsychism seems like a bandaid to solve the hard problem of consciousness It doesn't even do that, it just pushes it down the stack. If I ask, why is the sky blue, I don't want to hear "Because it's made of blue stuff." Not only is it wrong, it doesn't have any explanatory power at all. Ultimately if you want to understand why something has a certain property, you want to know how it arises from the emergent behavior of something more fundamental. A hurricane isn't made of hurricane bits, and brains aren't made of consciousness particles.
- mapcars 7y ago
  >If I ask, why is the sky blue, I don't want to hear "Because it's made of blue stuff." Well, you are not going far if you hear only what you want to hear. PS sky is blue because you perceive it as blue.
  - skywhopper 7y ago
    You missed the meaning of that idiom entirely. They don’t want to hear “because it’s made of blue stuff” because it’s wrong and useless, not because it is distasteful.
    - mapcars 7y ago
      I don't think I missed anything, if you already decided what is wrong - this is not a honest search - you just want to find something which satisfies your views.
      - robbrown451 7y ago
        I think he/she wants something that isn't circular and therefore meaningless.
        mapcars 7y ago
        Again, you put restriction of meaningful answer. But why not beautiful answer? Or poetic answer? Or funny one? Ultimately you still decided what you want first and then trying to find what fits.
        Aaargh20318 7y ago
        > why not beautiful answer? Or poetic answer? Or funny one? Because it's not useful.
        robbrown451 7y ago
        "you put restriction of meaningful answer" I know, pretty crazy of me there. Meanwhile I annoy car dealers by going in with an expectation of a vehicle that can actually get me from one place to another, rather than just sit there and amuse me.
- arnoooooo 7y ago
  agreed.
ArtWomb 7y ago
Am really pleased you name dropped "advaita vedanta" (literally translated from Sanskrit as "non-secondness"). From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on advaita vedanta: Brahman—the ultimate, transcendent and immanent God of the latter Vedas—appears as the world because of its creative energy (māyā). The world has no separate existence apart from Brahman. The experiencing self (jīva) and the transcendental self of the Universe (ātman) are in reality identical (both are Brahman), though the individual self seems different as space within a container seems different from space as such. These cardinal doctrines are represented in the anonymous verse “brahma satyam jagan mithya; jīvo brahmaiva na aparah” (Brahman is alone True, and this world of plurality is an error; the individual self is not different from Brahman). Plurality is experienced because of error in judgments (mithya) and ignorance (avidya). Knowledge of Brahman removes these errors and causes liberation from the cycle of transmigration and worldly bondage. Modern indian philosophy has hitherto been focused on problems specific to the nation-state: modernity, integral yoga, etc. But it will be interesting to see how it grapples with new discoveries in neuroscience. The references in classical indian literature I really admire always refer to "destroying illusion (maya)". Learning how to remove false cognition from pure sense perception. And seeing things with the vision of Brahman ;)
- arnoooooo 7y ago
  advaita vedanta as I understand it is the actual scientific approach to consciousness, as it focuses strictly on experience.
  - jaldhar 7y ago
    Advaita Vedanta accepts six pramanas (means of justified knowledge). Pratyaksha (sensory perception), anumana (inference), shabda (the words of the Vedas), upamana (comparison), arthapatti (presumption), and abhava (negation). Experience (anubhava) is NOT pramana.
    - arnoooooo 7y ago
      I meant experience in the form of sensory perception, followed by inference and comparison. I suppose you mean experience that would be tinted by interpretation ?

empath75 7y ago

> Panpsychism seems like a bandaid to solve the hard problem of consciousness It doesn't even do that, it just pushes it down the stack. If I ask, why is the sky blue, I don't want to hear "Because it's made of blue stuff." Not only is it wrong, it doesn't have any explanatory power at all. Ultimately if you want to understand why something has a certain property, you want to know how it arises from the emergent behavior of something more fundamental. A hurricane isn't made of hurricane bits, and brains aren't made of consciousness particles.

mapcars 7y ago
>If I ask, why is the sky blue, I don't want to hear "Because it's made of blue stuff." Well, you are not going far if you hear only what you want to hear. PS sky is blue because you perceive it as blue.
- skywhopper 7y ago
  You missed the meaning of that idiom entirely. They don’t want to hear “because it’s made of blue stuff” because it’s wrong and useless, not because it is distasteful.
  - mapcars 7y ago
    I don't think I missed anything, if you already decided what is wrong - this is not a honest search - you just want to find something which satisfies your views.
    - robbrown451 7y ago
      I think he/she wants something that isn't circular and therefore meaningless.
      - mapcars 7y ago
        Again, you put restriction of meaningful answer. But why not beautiful answer? Or poetic answer? Or funny one? Ultimately you still decided what you want first and then trying to find what fits.
        Aaargh20318 7y ago
        > why not beautiful answer? Or poetic answer? Or funny one? Because it's not useful.
        robbrown451 7y ago
        "you put restriction of meaningful answer" I know, pretty crazy of me there. Meanwhile I annoy car dealers by going in with an expectation of a vehicle that can actually get me from one place to another, rather than just sit there and amuse me.
arnoooooo 7y ago
agreed.

ArtWomb 7y ago

Am really pleased you name dropped "advaita vedanta" (literally translated from Sanskrit as "non-secondness"). From the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on advaita vedanta: Brahman—the ultimate, transcendent and immanent God of the latter Vedas—appears as the world because of its creative energy (māyā). The world has no separate existence apart from Brahman. The experiencing self (jīva) and the transcendental self of the Universe (ātman) are in reality identical (both are Brahman), though the individual self seems different as space within a container seems different from space as such. These cardinal doctrines are represented in the anonymous verse “brahma satyam jagan mithya; jīvo brahmaiva na aparah” (Brahman is alone True, and this world of plurality is an error; the individual self is not different from Brahman). Plurality is experienced because of error in judgments (mithya) and ignorance (avidya). Knowledge of Brahman removes these errors and causes liberation from the cycle of transmigration and worldly bondage. Modern indian philosophy has hitherto been focused on problems specific to the nation-state: modernity, integral yoga, etc. But it will be interesting to see how it grapples with new discoveries in neuroscience. The references in classical indian literature I really admire always refer to "destroying illusion (maya)". Learning how to remove false cognition from pure sense perception. And seeing things with the vision of Brahman ;)

arnoooooo 7y ago
advaita vedanta as I understand it is the actual scientific approach to consciousness, as it focuses strictly on experience.
- jaldhar 7y ago
  Advaita Vedanta accepts six pramanas (means of justified knowledge). Pratyaksha (sensory perception), anumana (inference), shabda (the words of the Vedas), upamana (comparison), arthapatti (presumption), and abhava (negation). Experience (anubhava) is NOT pramana.
  - arnoooooo 7y ago
    I meant experience in the form of sensory perception, followed by inference and comparison. I suppose you mean experience that would be tinted by interpretation ?