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Very well put. What I noticed is that every discipline invents their own lingo to describe the systems in play at the ethos of their discipline and they often

by tatar 7y ago

Very well put. What I noticed is that every discipline invents their own lingo to describe the systems in play at the ethos of their discipline and they often manifest as some sort of law, principle or concept. What I'm really curious about learning is to see if there's some sort of overarching discipline that focuses on these sort of systems as a meta and finds improvement points or market opportunities based on a given principle. Take Moore's law for instance. It essentially describes a relationship between the most atomic component of {system} and the price of the commodity that is offered by that {system}. (system=hardware) Now apply that to any other field. How about energy production? Is there a correlation between amount of cells in a solar panel and the price of energy at large available to consumers? This is still in the field of engineering so I'm guessing there will be some sort of relationship, but I wonder what taking it further into business and design for instance would look like. I don't know how that would look like but to clarify I don't expect any of these laws to illustrate a similar pattern, but I do expect them to define how further along or behind any given "system" is, assuming that they are somehow comparable.

hans1729 7y ago
I've thought about this a lot, it's my goto "one day I'll write a book about this". I frame the problem slightly different (heh): Different disciplines, branching out, will (or so says my hypothesis) discover the same topologies, but express them differently due to different scopes (perspective, dimensionality, DSLs [...]). What I'm thinking about is: how can we parametrize the manifestations of these scopes, and, ubiquitously, reverse-engineer them, thus linking all the systems? Then: which systems are topologically identical? If there are classes, how many? How do they differ? Are they (the systems OR the classes of systems) related? If so, is there a hierarchy (or are there multiple hierarchies)? My urge for this came from the intricate geometric representations for arithmetic problems; different scientific disciplines and industries just appear to fall into the same pattern. If someone knows a book that touches on this topic, please let me know about it, this thought is haunting me for years now :-)
- Chris2048 7y ago
  Systems thinking? Category theory?
  - hans1729 7y ago
    I actually ordered "Systems thinking" after someone in the thread mentioned it, Milewskis series on category theory is on my todo!
- yazanobeidi 7y ago
  Your comment made me think of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph “Multi modal” system representation in graph format. You can represent an electric, hydraulic and mechanical system in one graph. Anything really by relating them to the substituent energy and power. Its representation allows you to easily extract the differential equation. Neat stuff.
  - hans1729 7y ago
    >Anything really by relating them to the substituent energy and power. My brain is tickling, thank's a lot for the reference!
    - bumby 7y ago
      FWIW, control system theory resolves similarly. The response of a system (whether electrical, mechanical...) has the same basic concepts related to the energy of constituents defined by the differential equation of that system. For example, specific systems have fairly well understood corollaries like a compressed fluid behaving as a mechanical spring within a system. Further, mass is akin to capacitor (stores energy), a spring is akin to inductor (stores energy), a damper is akin to a resistor (dissipates energy) in terms of their representation on the differential equation of their response. You might find some control theory an interesting read but I don't know if it speaks to exactly what you're looking for in terms of the broadest applicability.
- 7y ago
AnonymousPlanet 7y ago
You could take a look at System Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory and especially the works of Niklas Luhmann. It doesn't touch the topic precisely in the way you are thinking about it, but it might give you some concepts and terminology for further development of your ideas.
MiracleUser 7y ago
Operations Research is related to this. I majored in Information & Systems Engineering which is analogous. The focus is on business, manufacturing, and operational systems and a section of the study is modelling a system and using RNG to simulate chaos / disorder
- prometheus76 7y ago
  I work in a fabrication shop and have done some modeling of some of our processes. I think it's more related to Chaos Theory (the underlying patterns and rhythms aren't truly random because they fall within certain ranges, even if they're unpredictable). What we are selling on the market as a fabrication shop is our ability to absorb variance and to build things that have never been built before (and will never be built again). Our whole business is built around variance. However, variance is not the same as randomness. If I look at the productivity of one worker, it has a certain rhythm and falls within a certain range, and what makes it chaotic is that no matter what scale I look at (worker, team, dept, shop), the variance is consistent. Just getting into this line of work and trying to make predictions about it has blown apart a lot of the ways I used to look at the world. The systems I study and work with are beautiful because they're chaotic, and just predictable enough to be relatively stable, but unpredictable enough to stay challenging and interesting.
  - MiracleUser 7y ago
    very interesting. I want to note that for models and simulations "unpredictable" = random. There are many different ways to model random variables so as to get that kind of stability you are referencing (or other kinds of stability) to show in the model. I agree it isnt a perfect match for reality (no model is) but a production stream with variance is a common model
muzani 7y ago
Games do an excellent job at abstracting it out. Here's a nice thesis on game systems [PDF]: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1167817/102082_thesis.pdf https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1167817/102082_thesis.pdf Duhigg's The Power of Habit, and some of his other books also do a good job at applying one principle across many fields.
timerol 7y ago
Moore's law is a specific example of a manufacturing learning curve, which can be described here: http://www.strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/learning_curves.htm http://www.strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/learning_curve.... This is generally what people mean when they talk about "economies of scale": The more of a thing you make, the faster and cheaper you can make it. Moore's law (indirectly) names the constants on this curve for a integrated electronics, which is a field where the exponential relationship is more pronounced and continues over many more orders of magnitude than in most disciplines.
- tatar 7y ago
  This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you! Just looking at learning curves per industry, do you think its possible to make educated guesses as to which would stand to benefit more from improvement?

by tatar 7y ago

hans1729 7y ago

I've thought about this a lot, it's my goto "one day I'll write a book about this". I frame the problem slightly different (heh): Different disciplines, branching out, will (or so says my hypothesis) discover the same topologies, but express them differently due to different scopes (perspective, dimensionality, DSLs [...]). What I'm thinking about is: how can we parametrize the manifestations of these scopes, and, ubiquitously, reverse-engineer them, thus linking all the systems? Then: which systems are topologically identical? If there are classes, how many? How do they differ? Are they (the systems OR the classes of systems) related? If so, is there a hierarchy (or are there multiple hierarchies)? My urge for this came from the intricate geometric representations for arithmetic problems; different scientific disciplines and industries just appear to fall into the same pattern. If someone knows a book that touches on this topic, please let me know about it, this thought is haunting me for years now :-)

Chris2048 7y ago
Systems thinking? Category theory?
- hans1729 7y ago
  I actually ordered "Systems thinking" after someone in the thread mentioned it, Milewskis series on category theory is on my todo!
yazanobeidi 7y ago
Your comment made me think of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_graph “Multi modal” system representation in graph format. You can represent an electric, hydraulic and mechanical system in one graph. Anything really by relating them to the substituent energy and power. Its representation allows you to easily extract the differential equation. Neat stuff.
- hans1729 7y ago
  >Anything really by relating them to the substituent energy and power. My brain is tickling, thank's a lot for the reference!
  - bumby 7y ago
    FWIW, control system theory resolves similarly. The response of a system (whether electrical, mechanical...) has the same basic concepts related to the energy of constituents defined by the differential equation of that system. For example, specific systems have fairly well understood corollaries like a compressed fluid behaving as a mechanical spring within a system. Further, mass is akin to capacitor (stores energy), a spring is akin to inductor (stores energy), a damper is akin to a resistor (dissipates energy) in terms of their representation on the differential equation of their response. You might find some control theory an interesting read but I don't know if it speaks to exactly what you're looking for in terms of the broadest applicability.
7y ago

AnonymousPlanet 7y ago

You could take a look at System Theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory and especially the works of Niklas Luhmann. It doesn't touch the topic precisely in the way you are thinking about it, but it might give you some concepts and terminology for further development of your ideas.

MiracleUser 7y ago

Operations Research is related to this. I majored in Information & Systems Engineering which is analogous. The focus is on business, manufacturing, and operational systems and a section of the study is modelling a system and using RNG to simulate chaos / disorder

prometheus76 7y ago
I work in a fabrication shop and have done some modeling of some of our processes. I think it's more related to Chaos Theory (the underlying patterns and rhythms aren't truly random because they fall within certain ranges, even if they're unpredictable). What we are selling on the market as a fabrication shop is our ability to absorb variance and to build things that have never been built before (and will never be built again). Our whole business is built around variance. However, variance is not the same as randomness. If I look at the productivity of one worker, it has a certain rhythm and falls within a certain range, and what makes it chaotic is that no matter what scale I look at (worker, team, dept, shop), the variance is consistent. Just getting into this line of work and trying to make predictions about it has blown apart a lot of the ways I used to look at the world. The systems I study and work with are beautiful because they're chaotic, and just predictable enough to be relatively stable, but unpredictable enough to stay challenging and interesting.
- MiracleUser 7y ago
  very interesting. I want to note that for models and simulations "unpredictable" = random. There are many different ways to model random variables so as to get that kind of stability you are referencing (or other kinds of stability) to show in the model. I agree it isnt a perfect match for reality (no model is) but a production stream with variance is a common model

muzani 7y ago

Games do an excellent job at abstracting it out. Here's a nice thesis on game systems [PDF]: https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1167817/102082_thesis.pdf https://pure.uva.nl/ws/files/1167817/102082_thesis.pdf Duhigg's The Power of Habit, and some of his other books also do a good job at applying one principle across many fields.

timerol 7y ago

Moore's law is a specific example of a manufacturing learning curve, which can be described here: http://www.strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/learning_curves.htm http://www.strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/learning_curve.... This is generally what people mean when they talk about "economies of scale": The more of a thing you make, the faster and cheaper you can make it. Moore's law (indirectly) names the constants on this curve for a integrated electronics, which is a field where the exponential relationship is more pronounced and continues over many more orders of magnitude than in most disciplines.

tatar 7y ago
This is exactly what I was looking for, thank you! Just looking at learning curves per industry, do you think its possible to make educated guesses as to which would stand to benefit more from improvement?