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> I'm sorry but it's just not worth it. I can't think of many sober people that would disagree. I've hired developers for the last 10 years and never looked at

by awb 7y ago

> I'm sorry but it's just not worth it. I can't think of many sober people that would disagree. I've hired developers for the last 10 years and never looked at education, just skills. I think you're making a smart move and helping to hopefully boost these new forms of education that don't require sitting in a classroom for 4 years.

jessehorne 7y ago
This makes me extremely happy to hear and it seems others are following the same path! Good on you. For me, it just seems like the logical way to go. Progress comes for us all, no matter how many years we've carried a tradition. If the colleges are struggling with low enrollment, it must be time to go back to the drawing board.
mehrdadn 7y ago
The last 10 years have been hardly typical years for the job market, at least in software. I can't predict the future, but education is (or at least was) supposed to be a long term investment, and it might be a fallacy to assume the next 30-40 years will be like the previous 10.
- StandardFuture 7y ago
  Well it is certainly possible that the labor market becomes even more saturated in software and education falls back into being an easy go-to natural filtration system. We are seeing the big tech companies more than ever use algorithmic puzzle questions, and startups using "culture fit" as easy go-to filtration systems. But, I imagine education might be an even simpler filter if labor supply keeps growing. It certainly makes for easy automated filtering if a person doesn't have a top-20 school listed on their resume.
  - shantly 7y ago
    If there’s a real downturn we’ll see the big boys cut jobs—maybe a lot. Or even just some regulatory changes (especially reigning in spying and fruits-of-spying monetization) without a broader downturn. Wages downmarket would suffer a ton with all those top-comp folks with (by definition) above-average résumés and work history suddenly looking for a job. Probably upward mobility (into lead/senior/et c.) will suffer a lot. Doesn’t take more supply, lower demand is something we will see again.
  - awb 7y ago
    > It certainly makes for easy automated filtering if a person doesn't have a top-20 school listed on their resume. That seems like a very weak hiring strategy. I'd imagine the top 10% of CS majors at a mid-tier school might be better than the bottom 10% at a top-tier school. Also, college rankings can include all sorts of factors like endowments that might only be weakly correlated with the quality of the education, which itself is probably very difficult to measure. Plus you're going to have a hiring bias against self-learners or those that can't afford a top 20 school. A quick quiz or sample of prior work is a much better filter than a college name.
  - tomp 7y ago
    > Well it is certainly possible that the labor market becomes even more saturated in software and education falls back into being an easy go-to natural filtration system. Education is a shitty filtration system. Work-examples and/or skill-demonstration based interviews like the ones used for programmers are much better. The only reason that so many other industries rely on education is that they don't have as good ways of testing the actual skills of job applicants (and/or because testing doesn't scale that well - e.g. you can give a coding test to every programmer, but can't give a "surgery test" to every doctor).
- Zelphyr 7y ago
  In a 20+ year career in software engineering I've never once been told I didn't get a job because I didn't have a college degree.
  - BigChiefSmokem 7y ago
    Amazon engineering staff told me they wanted to hire me but could not because of some college degree policy they used to have. I dodged a bullet really, now I know better than to work for a company like Amazon.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    Have there been any times you applied and didn't get a job? I ask because it is very unlikely an employer will straight up tell you that this was the reason.
  - modo_mario 7y ago
    After a certain amount of experienced it isn't asked about anymore. Perhaps because a lot of what you would have learned would be outdated anyway or you would have picked it up on the job. When starting out tho at some you can get by by shown competencies, software you made or contributed to, tests, etc but it can matter at a lot of places
  - pingyong 7y ago
    While there certainly are a lot of companies that don't care about your degree, there are at least as many companies that won't even look at your resume without one. It literally gets auto-filtered. (Especially with less than 5 years of experience.) And as much as I'd like to say that you don't want to work for those kinds of people anyway, in my experience it is at best loosely connected to how your day to day work life actually looks like.
    - commandlinefan 7y ago
      > there are at least as many companies that won't even look at your resume without one And it’s about to get worse. You could get a job without a degree or any relevant experience in the 90’s because there were so many to be had and so few degrees to be found. Once you were in, you could stay in by virtue of your experience. This isn’t the case any more; it’s about to be impossible to get an entry level development job without a relevant degree. I think sometimes HN commenters forget that there’s a whole generation of kids in high school today who didn’t work for .com startups throughout the 90’s…
donteatglitter 7y ago
Hopefully there are more people like you and less HR depts looking at colleges first or asking random and irrelevant CS questions
finneganscat 7y ago
Could you imagine an electrical engineer hiring manager saying this? Or law partner? Or medical hospital? Software is the only professional field that I can think of where hiring managers often disdain or disregard diplomas in favor of “skills”. I think it misses the point that developing problem solving abilities outside of a particular programming skill will quite often carry over to superior abilities within that skill. I have physics and Computer Science degrees. Often, I find that the thought processes I used to learn quantum mechanics are beneficial to the logical thought required to successfully master a new programming language or framework. Is a diploma necessary to be a good coder? Absolutely not! Should it be disregarded? Absolutely not!
foobiekr 7y ago
I work with a number of people who are fixated and super judged about brand-name school when hiring, especially Stanford. Single anecdotal example though.

by awb 7y ago

jessehorne 7y ago

This makes me extremely happy to hear and it seems others are following the same path! Good on you. For me, it just seems like the logical way to go. Progress comes for us all, no matter how many years we've carried a tradition. If the colleges are struggling with low enrollment, it must be time to go back to the drawing board.

mehrdadn 7y ago

The last 10 years have been hardly typical years for the job market, at least in software. I can't predict the future, but education is (or at least was) supposed to be a long term investment, and it might be a fallacy to assume the next 30-40 years will be like the previous 10.

StandardFuture 7y ago
Well it is certainly possible that the labor market becomes even more saturated in software and education falls back into being an easy go-to natural filtration system. We are seeing the big tech companies more than ever use algorithmic puzzle questions, and startups using "culture fit" as easy go-to filtration systems. But, I imagine education might be an even simpler filter if labor supply keeps growing. It certainly makes for easy automated filtering if a person doesn't have a top-20 school listed on their resume.
- shantly 7y ago
  If there’s a real downturn we’ll see the big boys cut jobs—maybe a lot. Or even just some regulatory changes (especially reigning in spying and fruits-of-spying monetization) without a broader downturn. Wages downmarket would suffer a ton with all those top-comp folks with (by definition) above-average résumés and work history suddenly looking for a job. Probably upward mobility (into lead/senior/et c.) will suffer a lot. Doesn’t take more supply, lower demand is something we will see again.
- awb 7y ago
  > It certainly makes for easy automated filtering if a person doesn't have a top-20 school listed on their resume. That seems like a very weak hiring strategy. I'd imagine the top 10% of CS majors at a mid-tier school might be better than the bottom 10% at a top-tier school. Also, college rankings can include all sorts of factors like endowments that might only be weakly correlated with the quality of the education, which itself is probably very difficult to measure. Plus you're going to have a hiring bias against self-learners or those that can't afford a top 20 school. A quick quiz or sample of prior work is a much better filter than a college name.
- tomp 7y ago
  > Well it is certainly possible that the labor market becomes even more saturated in software and education falls back into being an easy go-to natural filtration system. Education is a shitty filtration system. Work-examples and/or skill-demonstration based interviews like the ones used for programmers are much better. The only reason that so many other industries rely on education is that they don't have as good ways of testing the actual skills of job applicants (and/or because testing doesn't scale that well - e.g. you can give a coding test to every programmer, but can't give a "surgery test" to every doctor).
Zelphyr 7y ago
In a 20+ year career in software engineering I've never once been told I didn't get a job because I didn't have a college degree.
- BigChiefSmokem 7y ago
  Amazon engineering staff told me they wanted to hire me but could not because of some college degree policy they used to have. I dodged a bullet really, now I know better than to work for a company like Amazon.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  Have there been any times you applied and didn't get a job? I ask because it is very unlikely an employer will straight up tell you that this was the reason.
- modo_mario 7y ago
  After a certain amount of experienced it isn't asked about anymore. Perhaps because a lot of what you would have learned would be outdated anyway or you would have picked it up on the job. When starting out tho at some you can get by by shown competencies, software you made or contributed to, tests, etc but it can matter at a lot of places
- pingyong 7y ago
  While there certainly are a lot of companies that don't care about your degree, there are at least as many companies that won't even look at your resume without one. It literally gets auto-filtered. (Especially with less than 5 years of experience.) And as much as I'd like to say that you don't want to work for those kinds of people anyway, in my experience it is at best loosely connected to how your day to day work life actually looks like.
  - commandlinefan 7y ago
    > there are at least as many companies that won't even look at your resume without one And it’s about to get worse. You could get a job without a degree or any relevant experience in the 90’s because there were so many to be had and so few degrees to be found. Once you were in, you could stay in by virtue of your experience. This isn’t the case any more; it’s about to be impossible to get an entry level development job without a relevant degree. I think sometimes HN commenters forget that there’s a whole generation of kids in high school today who didn’t work for .com startups throughout the 90’s…

donteatglitter 7y ago

Hopefully there are more people like you and less HR depts looking at colleges first or asking random and irrelevant CS questions

finneganscat 7y ago

Could you imagine an electrical engineer hiring manager saying this? Or law partner? Or medical hospital? Software is the only professional field that I can think of where hiring managers often disdain or disregard diplomas in favor of “skills”. I think it misses the point that developing problem solving abilities outside of a particular programming skill will quite often carry over to superior abilities within that skill. I have physics and Computer Science degrees. Often, I find that the thought processes I used to learn quantum mechanics are beneficial to the logical thought required to successfully master a new programming language or framework. Is a diploma necessary to be a good coder? Absolutely not! Should it be disregarded? Absolutely not!

foobiekr 7y ago

I work with a number of people who are fixated and super judged about brand-name school when hiring, especially Stanford. Single anecdotal example though.