6 ms·

Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. A

Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. All of these are lies I've been told. As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over. Any defense attorney can bring that one time you got caught lying up in court, discounting your entire testimony on every case forever, making you useless. No matter how bad you screw up as a cop, the number 1 rule is don't lie about it in court. *Maybe not in some jurisdictions? But realistically yeah, always

chrisseaton 7y ago
> Lying in court is always* illegal. So if you plead not guilty to some crime, and they find you guilty, do you get prosecuted for lying in court with your plead as well as for the original crime?
- CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
  I believe that entering a plea doesn't count as testimony, thus isnt subject to perjury laws. Most of my cases were plea deals before trial, or were cases where the defendant did not testify. Saying "not guilty" also doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do anything, you may honestly believe at that point, and make the argument, that the thing you did was not illegal.
  - sterlind 7y ago
    What about Alford pleas? I thought they existed so that you could reserve the right to appeal or avoid a civil action by avoiding an admission of guilt while acknowledging that you will likely be convicted.
    - dreamcompiler 7y ago
      IANAL but from what my lawyer friends have told me an Alford plea is practically the same as a guilty plea for purposes of appeal. In other words, it's very difficult to appeal an Alford plea. Seek legal advice before considering an Alford plea.
- foobarian 7y ago
  A plea is not a statement of fact, is it? It's your opinion and true by definition.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jlgaddis 7y ago
  Pleading isn't considered "testimonial". Typically, one is only "sworn in" prior to giving testimony.
iron0013 7y ago
“As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over.” I wish that was the case, but as a LEO yourself you have to be aware that that’s absolutely untrue. Oh neat, there’s a whole Wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury I want to assume good faith and positive intent, but I have to be honest that it really strains credulity that you really believed that cops would refrain from committing perjury for fear of suffering professional consequences
- CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
  From your link: "A common trope amongst police officers in the United States is the aphorism: "If you lie, you die." This is indicative of the essential need for trustworthiness in the job—police officers are society's observers, enforcers and professional witnesses—and a warning that any deliberate falsehood can undermine the officer's continued usefulness, resulting in termination. Such terminations have been judicially enforced.[20]" I personally know of 3 cops who lost their job for dishonesty. It's not even stuff like planting drugs, but turning in fake tickets (court copies never submitted, just office copies). Further, look up the Brady List. In everywhere I've worked, if you're on it, the Commonwealth's Attorney will not take your cases. Period. If your lawyer loses a case where the witness is a cop who has lied intentionally on record, you have a crappy lawyer or a terribly corrupt judge AND jury
  - jkartchner 7y ago
    I practiced in Virginia for about 6 years. I handled approx 150 DUIs there. It is in the officers best interest to exaggerate their findings while investigating a crime. So ok. Yeah. Most officers don’t “lie.” But they certainly don’t act objectively either. You know the onerous discovery policies in Virginia. Prosecutors don’t have to give you much. Even the Constitutionally mandated stuff is impossible to check because the only people who could, defense attorneys, have no way of knowing what exists. Last, and I think this was op’s point: a lie only becomes a lie if it can be exposed as a lie. Most statements are very difficult to outright prove as a lie. This goes for defendants claiming they have someone else’s pants and for officers who are VERY sure she had bloodshot eyes “which in (their) training and experience are consistent with intoxication by marijuana.”
epx 7y ago
In Brazilian (Roman?) law, you can lie if you are one of the sides, not if you are a witness.
mirimir 7y ago
> "These aren't my pants" I'd love to hear the context for that one :)
- shantly 7y ago
  Guessing there were drugs in one or more pockets.
  - mcny 7y ago
    Never works. I was driving my friend’s car. I had a tire burst on me. I pulled over to the side of the road. Cops showed up in a few minutes and charged me with reckless driving. Made me take three different breathalyzers. I hadn’t been drinking so obviously it showed “well below the legal limit”. But my friend apparently had an empty beer can in the back. You can never say it wasn’t yours, apparently. In any case, paid the fine. Oh well.
    - mikorym 7y ago
      Is it illegal to have an empty beer can in your car? A couple of German exchange students once told me that you can drink in a car while the car is moving as long as the driver doesn't drink anything.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        In the US, it is.
        kjs3 7y ago
        Yea...US DUI laws are "interesting". I make every effort to not drink and drive, but I definitely don't let anyone in a car I'm driving have an open drink. I've seen way to many 'you just handed your drink to the guy in the back seat' scenes to risk that.
        P_I_Staker 7y ago
        Not everywhere, and it should be nowhere. Which states don't specify that there needs to be alcohol in the container? That seems like a bizarre last, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

chrisseaton 7y ago

> Lying in court is always* illegal. So if you plead not guilty to some crime, and they find you guilty, do you get prosecuted for lying in court with your plead as well as for the original crime?

CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
I believe that entering a plea doesn't count as testimony, thus isnt subject to perjury laws. Most of my cases were plea deals before trial, or were cases where the defendant did not testify. Saying "not guilty" also doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do anything, you may honestly believe at that point, and make the argument, that the thing you did was not illegal.
- sterlind 7y ago
  What about Alford pleas? I thought they existed so that you could reserve the right to appeal or avoid a civil action by avoiding an admission of guilt while acknowledging that you will likely be convicted.
  - dreamcompiler 7y ago
    IANAL but from what my lawyer friends have told me an Alford plea is practically the same as a guilty plea for purposes of appeal. In other words, it's very difficult to appeal an Alford plea. Seek legal advice before considering an Alford plea.
foobarian 7y ago
A plea is not a statement of fact, is it? It's your opinion and true by definition.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jlgaddis 7y ago
Pleading isn't considered "testimonial". Typically, one is only "sworn in" prior to giving testimony.

iron0013 7y ago

“As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over.” I wish that was the case, but as a LEO yourself you have to be aware that that’s absolutely untrue. Oh neat, there’s a whole Wikipedia article about it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_perjury I want to assume good faith and positive intent, but I have to be honest that it really strains credulity that you really believed that cops would refrain from committing perjury for fear of suffering professional consequences

CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
From your link: "A common trope amongst police officers in the United States is the aphorism: "If you lie, you die." This is indicative of the essential need for trustworthiness in the job—police officers are society's observers, enforcers and professional witnesses—and a warning that any deliberate falsehood can undermine the officer's continued usefulness, resulting in termination. Such terminations have been judicially enforced.[20]" I personally know of 3 cops who lost their job for dishonesty. It's not even stuff like planting drugs, but turning in fake tickets (court copies never submitted, just office copies). Further, look up the Brady List. In everywhere I've worked, if you're on it, the Commonwealth's Attorney will not take your cases. Period. If your lawyer loses a case where the witness is a cop who has lied intentionally on record, you have a crappy lawyer or a terribly corrupt judge AND jury
- jkartchner 7y ago
  I practiced in Virginia for about 6 years. I handled approx 150 DUIs there. It is in the officers best interest to exaggerate their findings while investigating a crime. So ok. Yeah. Most officers don’t “lie.” But they certainly don’t act objectively either. You know the onerous discovery policies in Virginia. Prosecutors don’t have to give you much. Even the Constitutionally mandated stuff is impossible to check because the only people who could, defense attorneys, have no way of knowing what exists. Last, and I think this was op’s point: a lie only becomes a lie if it can be exposed as a lie. Most statements are very difficult to outright prove as a lie. This goes for defendants claiming they have someone else’s pants and for officers who are VERY sure she had bloodshot eyes “which in (their) training and experience are consistent with intoxication by marijuana.”

epx 7y ago

In Brazilian (Roman?) law, you can lie if you are one of the sides, not if you are a witness.

mirimir 7y ago

> "These aren't my pants" I'd love to hear the context for that one :)

shantly 7y ago
Guessing there were drugs in one or more pockets.
- mcny 7y ago
  Never works. I was driving my friend’s car. I had a tire burst on me. I pulled over to the side of the road. Cops showed up in a few minutes and charged me with reckless driving. Made me take three different breathalyzers. I hadn’t been drinking so obviously it showed “well below the legal limit”. But my friend apparently had an empty beer can in the back. You can never say it wasn’t yours, apparently. In any case, paid the fine. Oh well.
  - mikorym 7y ago
    Is it illegal to have an empty beer can in your car? A couple of German exchange students once told me that you can drink in a car while the car is moving as long as the driver doesn't drink anything.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      In the US, it is.
      - kjs3 7y ago
        Yea...US DUI laws are "interesting". I make every effort to not drink and drive, but I definitely don't let anyone in a car I'm driving have an open drink. I've seen way to many 'you just handed your drink to the guy in the back seat' scenes to risk that.
      - P_I_Staker 7y ago
        Not everywhere, and it should be nowhere. Which states don't specify that there needs to be alcohol in the container? That seems like a bizarre last, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.