6 ms·

Former cop here. The article states "You cannot lie to the police". This is, generally, incorrect. Some jurisdictions may have some specific law, but other tha

Former cop here. The article states "You cannot lie to the police". This is, generally, incorrect. Some jurisdictions may have some specific law, but other than certain exceptions, lying has no general consequence. If it did, there would be a lot more charges against pretty much everyone who has been arrested. In my experience, people will lie about stuff that's not even relevant, or helpful to them. Exceptions include things like giving a fake ID or name/dob or SSN to avoid certain identifications (e.g. on a traffic stop). Also, lying to a federal agent during their investigation is illegal, to my understanding. In Virginia, if you lie to the police regarding the investigation of a different person than yourself, it is considered obstruction of justice, though I can think of maybe one time that I heard of that law being used that way. But in general, it's a good article. Assert your rights politely, but firmly. If the cop disregards it, don't try to stop them. If the cop does illegal stuff violating 4th and 5th amendment, there's a chance the case gets tossed (as it should). If you try to physically stop the 4th amendment violation, and you're wrong about it being a violation, you just made your problem worse. Of the people who've accused me of violating their rights, 0 have been correct, but plenty of people have asserted their rights, and stopped an investigation that I had reasonable suspicion, but not probable cause on, and no further means to reasonably develop PC.

gjs278 7y ago
> Of the people who've accused me of violating their rights, 0 have been correct every cop thinks this is true. why would they intentionally violate a right?
cassbot 7y ago
IANAL but my understanding was that lying to the police opens you up to obstruction of justice charges -- or perjury. For instance, I learned from law professor James Duane's video that Martha Stewart would have completely avoided prison time if she had not lied to investigators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&feature=emb_title&t=24m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&feature=emb_titl...
- CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
  Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. All of these are lies I've been told. As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over. Any defense attorney can bring that one time you got caught lying up in court, discounting your entire testimony on every case forever, making you useless. No matter how bad you screw up as a cop, the number 1 rule is don't lie about it in court. *Maybe not in some jurisdictions? But realistically yeah, always
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    > Lying in court is always* illegal. So if you plead not guilty to some crime, and they find you guilty, do you get prosecuted for lying in court with your plead as well as for the original crime?
    - CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
      I believe that entering a plea doesn't count as testimony, thus isnt subject to perjury laws. Most of my cases were plea deals before trial, or were cases where the defendant did not testify. Saying "not guilty" also doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do anything, you may honestly believe at that point, and make the argument, that the thing you did was not illegal.
      - sterlind 7y ago
        What about Alford pleas? I thought they existed so that you could reserve the right to appeal or avoid a civil action by avoiding an admission of guilt while acknowledging that you will likely be convicted.
        dreamcompiler 7y ago
        IANAL but from what my lawyer friends have told me an Alford plea is practically the same as a guilty plea for purposes of appeal. In other words, it's very difficult to appeal an Alford plea. Seek legal advice before considering an Alford plea.
torstenvl 7y ago
A caveat to lying: even if your particular jurisdiction doesn't criminalize lying to law enforcement, it can result in a truly devastating jury instruction. The judge will literally instruct the jury "It is reasonable to infer that an innocent person does not usually find it necessary to invent or fabricate an explanation or statement..." https://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/sites/ca3/files/2013%20Chapter%204%20final%20revised.pdf https://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/sites/ca3/files/2013%20Chapter%...
- chillingeffect 7y ago
  When you re-read the GP, recalling that the police are allowed to lie to you, realize that includes telling you it's ok to lie to them.
quaquaqua1 7y ago
Despite your helpful advice and decision to leave the "law enforcement" profession, please allow me to give you and all of your former colleagues a gigantic fuck you for all of the tickets, court hearings, fines, fees, heartache, and bullshit you have personally caused me over the years. Additionally, for my friends and for others I don't even know that police officers have killed or wrongfully imprisoned, please allow me to extend another gigantic fuck you that you must suffer for showing your presence to me on this forum. I truly cannot express succinctly or precisely my extreme disdain for anyone who willingly chooses to work in such a corrupt profession. Even if you jumped into a burning building or saved some person from dying, it does not in my eyes make amends for the destruction you have caused just for a paycheck and because the system told you to do so.
- dang 7y ago
  You can't attack another user like this on HN, regardless of how you feel about the police, which I'm sure you have good reasons for. We ban accounts that violate the site guidelines this badly, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again. Maybe you don't owe the person you're replying to any better—though if you're blasting them just because they belong to a category, maybe you do—but you definitely owe this community much better if you want to participate here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20maybe%20you%20don%27t%20owe%20better&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
cheez 7y ago
You're not the cops I've dealt with but thanks for being good sports when I go hard on you guys when you falsely arrest me and stuff. Eventually the realization dawns that I am rich and will fight back (I don't look it, drive an old car, wear old clothes) and magically the charges go away. Occasionally, I have to prove one of you perjured yourself.
- bsanr2 7y ago
  This makes me wonder how much of legal decision-making is based on the actual law and the arguments being made, and how much is based on one's adherence to proper "courtroom culture" demonstrating that you're sophisticated enough to warrant bargaining with, rather than dictated to.
  - cheez 7y ago
    Approximately zero percent is based on law. Its based on what the enforcers think they can get away with.
kjs3 7y ago
My attorney has advised me (over social beers, not while preparing me for a court appearance :-) ) that while I can lie to the police, if I do and the prosecution can prove it, they will beat me like a drum with the fact I lied throughout any prosecution. Basically, there are no direct consequences, but if things get hairy, there can be indirect consequences.
bsanr2 7y ago
I'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated intent to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation.
- fouc 7y ago
  >Police have a tough job. They are on the lookout for any sign of danger. Make it clear that you are a sane, reasonable person. Keep your hands visible at all times. Avoid the element of surprise. > If you have any weapons or potentially dangerous items on you, keep your hands visible at all times and inform the officer. Inform the officer of your every move, if you need to reach for anything (your identification, your registration, etc.).
  - bsanr2 7y ago
    I'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated intent to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation.
    - craftinator 7y ago
      Ya know that bahhhh sound that sheep make?
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      Pick up sticks and get away as fast as possible. Expect to be shot at. You can run from many kinds of encounters with Police when there's no presumption of guilt. They're not allowed to use force in pursuit unless necessary, and running does not make it necessary on its own. Fighting back is a good way to end up in jail as well as dead. Running can result in you getting away free at least.
  - BlackLotus89 7y ago
    Reminds me of "surviving edged weapons" https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vix6-afHzMg https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vix6-afHzMg (don't watch it if you are faint of heart or dislike gory scenes)
- 7y ago
jlgaddis 7y ago
In the State of Indiana, where I reside, > A person who: > (1) gives a false report of the commission of a crime or gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false; > ... > knowing the report or information to be false; commits false informing [0] I've omitted (for brevity) several other things that also make a person guilty of this particular crime but read (1) again and think about how absolutely vague that sentence really is: > gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false; (Note that, here, both making a "false identity statement" and "assisting a criminal" are completely separate crimes; the above simply regards any "false information", generally.) Granted, a prosecutor likely wouldn't bother wasting his time and the government's money to charge you over some inconsequential, petty lie but that might not stop a police officer from arresting you and making you spend a day or two in jail over it -- especially if he's having a bad day or you've done something to piss him off. Is that really a chance you want to take? Personally, I feel that the best ("smartest") thing one can say when such an "opportunity" arises is absolutely nothing. To paraphrase Proverbs (17:28), "Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise." [1] [0]: Indiana Code, Title 35, Article 44.1, Chapter 2, Section 3
- wavefunction 7y ago
  Yeah but if you're being pulled over for illegitimate reasons none of that technically applies. If it goes to court and it's your word against the police's then you are at a potential disadvantage, unless you run into a jury of your fellow proletariat.
dreamcompiler 7y ago
Were you a federal, state, or local cop? Lying to a federal officer is a felony. Lying to a local cop can be less of a problem, but the feds can even make that a big deal if the entity being lied to receives federal funding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements
- macinjosh 7y ago
  Lying is an act of speech and the government is prohibited from abridging that right according to the first amendment. We all know how that goes. Graduates of Yale, Harvard, et al. are appointed to SCOTUS over the course of generations. They parse plain language to mean whatever suits them and, well, here we are.

gjs278 7y ago

> Of the people who've accused me of violating their rights, 0 have been correct every cop thinks this is true. why would they intentionally violate a right?

cassbot 7y ago

IANAL but my understanding was that lying to the police opens you up to obstruction of justice charges -- or perjury. For instance, I learned from law professor James Duane's video that Martha Stewart would have completely avoided prison time if she had not lied to investigators. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&feature=emb_title&t=24m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE&feature=emb_titl...

CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
Lying in court is always* illegal. Lying in general, e.g "I didn't steal anything", "I only had 2 beers", "These aren't my pants", is not inherently illegal. All of these are lies I've been told. As a cop, if you get caught lying, i.e. intentionally false testimony in court, your career is effectively over. Any defense attorney can bring that one time you got caught lying up in court, discounting your entire testimony on every case forever, making you useless. No matter how bad you screw up as a cop, the number 1 rule is don't lie about it in court. *Maybe not in some jurisdictions? But realistically yeah, always
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  > Lying in court is always* illegal. So if you plead not guilty to some crime, and they find you guilty, do you get prosecuted for lying in court with your plead as well as for the original crime?
  - CodeAndCuffs 7y ago
    I believe that entering a plea doesn't count as testimony, thus isnt subject to perjury laws. Most of my cases were plea deals before trial, or were cases where the defendant did not testify. Saying "not guilty" also doesn't necessarily mean you didn't do anything, you may honestly believe at that point, and make the argument, that the thing you did was not illegal.
    - sterlind 7y ago
      What about Alford pleas? I thought they existed so that you could reserve the right to appeal or avoid a civil action by avoiding an admission of guilt while acknowledging that you will likely be convicted.
      - dreamcompiler 7y ago
        IANAL but from what my lawyer friends have told me an Alford plea is practically the same as a guilty plea for purposes of appeal. In other words, it's very difficult to appeal an Alford plea. Seek legal advice before considering an Alford plea.

torstenvl 7y ago

A caveat to lying: even if your particular jurisdiction doesn't criminalize lying to law enforcement, it can result in a truly devastating jury instruction. The judge will literally instruct the jury "It is reasonable to infer that an innocent person does not usually find it necessary to invent or fabricate an explanation or statement..." https://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/sites/ca3/files/2013%20Chapter%204%20final%20revised.pdf https://www.ca3.uscourts.gov/sites/ca3/files/2013%20Chapter%...

chillingeffect 7y ago
When you re-read the GP, recalling that the police are allowed to lie to you, realize that includes telling you it's ok to lie to them.

quaquaqua1 7y ago

Despite your helpful advice and decision to leave the "law enforcement" profession, please allow me to give you and all of your former colleagues a gigantic fuck you for all of the tickets, court hearings, fines, fees, heartache, and bullshit you have personally caused me over the years. Additionally, for my friends and for others I don't even know that police officers have killed or wrongfully imprisoned, please allow me to extend another gigantic fuck you that you must suffer for showing your presence to me on this forum. I truly cannot express succinctly or precisely my extreme disdain for anyone who willingly chooses to work in such a corrupt profession. Even if you jumped into a burning building or saved some person from dying, it does not in my eyes make amends for the destruction you have caused just for a paycheck and because the system told you to do so.

dang 7y ago
You can't attack another user like this on HN, regardless of how you feel about the police, which I'm sure you have good reasons for. We ban accounts that violate the site guidelines this badly, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and don't do this again. Maybe you don't owe the person you're replying to any better—though if you're blasting them just because they belong to a category, maybe you do—but you definitely owe this community much better if you want to participate here. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20maybe%20you%20don%27t%20owe%20better&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

cheez 7y ago

You're not the cops I've dealt with but thanks for being good sports when I go hard on you guys when you falsely arrest me and stuff. Eventually the realization dawns that I am rich and will fight back (I don't look it, drive an old car, wear old clothes) and magically the charges go away. Occasionally, I have to prove one of you perjured yourself.

bsanr2 7y ago
This makes me wonder how much of legal decision-making is based on the actual law and the arguments being made, and how much is based on one's adherence to proper "courtroom culture" demonstrating that you're sophisticated enough to warrant bargaining with, rather than dictated to.
- cheez 7y ago
  Approximately zero percent is based on law. Its based on what the enforcers think they can get away with.

kjs3 7y ago

My attorney has advised me (over social beers, not while preparing me for a court appearance :-) ) that while I can lie to the police, if I do and the prosecution can prove it, they will beat me like a drum with the fact I lied throughout any prosecution. Basically, there are no direct consequences, but if things get hairy, there can be indirect consequences.

bsanr2 7y ago

I'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated intent to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation.

fouc 7y ago
>Police have a tough job. They are on the lookout for any sign of danger. Make it clear that you are a sane, reasonable person. Keep your hands visible at all times. Avoid the element of surprise. > If you have any weapons or potentially dangerous items on you, keep your hands visible at all times and inform the officer. Inform the officer of your every move, if you need to reach for anything (your identification, your registration, etc.).
- bsanr2 7y ago
  I'm still unclear on what to do when a police officer has demonstrated intent to hurt or kill you, despite your cooperation.
  - craftinator 7y ago
    Ya know that bahhhh sound that sheep make?
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Pick up sticks and get away as fast as possible. Expect to be shot at. You can run from many kinds of encounters with Police when there's no presumption of guilt. They're not allowed to use force in pursuit unless necessary, and running does not make it necessary on its own. Fighting back is a good way to end up in jail as well as dead. Running can result in you getting away free at least.
- BlackLotus89 7y ago
  Reminds me of "surviving edged weapons" https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vix6-afHzMg https://youtube.com/watch?v=Vix6-afHzMg (don't watch it if you are faint of heart or dislike gory scenes)
7y ago

jlgaddis 7y ago

In the State of Indiana, where I reside, > A person who: > (1) gives a false report of the commission of a crime or gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false; > ... > knowing the report or information to be false; commits false informing [0] I've omitted (for brevity) several other things that also make a person guilty of this particular crime but read (1) again and think about how absolutely vague that sentence really is: > gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false; (Note that, here, both making a "false identity statement" and "assisting a criminal" are completely separate crimes; the above simply regards any "false information", generally.) Granted, a prosecutor likely wouldn't bother wasting his time and the government's money to charge you over some inconsequential, petty lie but that might not stop a police officer from arresting you and making you spend a day or two in jail over it -- especially if he's having a bad day or you've done something to piss him off. Is that really a chance you want to take? Personally, I feel that the best ("smartest") thing one can say when such an "opportunity" arises is absolutely nothing. To paraphrase Proverbs (17:28), "Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise." [1] [0]: Indiana Code, Title 35, Article 44.1, Chapter 2, Section 3

wavefunction 7y ago
Yeah but if you're being pulled over for illegitimate reasons none of that technically applies. If it goes to court and it's your word against the police's then you are at a potential disadvantage, unless you run into a jury of your fellow proletariat.

dreamcompiler 7y ago

Were you a federal, state, or local cop? Lying to a federal officer is a felony. Lying to a local cop can be less of a problem, but the feds can even make that a big deal if the entity being lied to receives federal funding. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

macinjosh 7y ago
Lying is an act of speech and the government is prohibited from abridging that right according to the first amendment. We all know how that goes. Graduates of Yale, Harvard, et al. are appointed to SCOTUS over the course of generations. They parse plain language to mean whatever suits them and, well, here we are.