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> drinking alcohol only in moderation (defined in this study as just under 2 units for women and 4 units for men daily) This part Of “stay healthy” advice has

by DenisM 7y ago

> drinking alcohol only in moderation (defined in this study as just under 2 units for women and 4 units for men daily) This part Of “stay healthy” advice has always puzzled me - it looks like full blown alcoholism. Am I way off?

dragonwriter 7y ago
> This part Of “stay healthy” advice has always puzzled me - it looks like full blown alcoholism. Am I way off? Yes, probably because you are mistaking a not-more-on-any-day-than level for a constant-consumption-every-day level. Oh, and also confusing addiction with level of consumption.
vzidex 7y ago
I think the idea is that full-blown alcoholism is what really destroys your body. That being said, the link is definitely inconclusive - this is the article I always think of when thinking about alcohol [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401
gowld 7y ago
There's slow low key buzz in afternoon/evening, evening and there's overloading your liver binging. Also those numbers are not adjusted for body size. Some non-obese people weigh 100lb and some weigh 260lb.
vkou 7y ago
4 units is not 4 beers. A single 7% beer bottle is 3 units. 9 beers a week is... Not quite full-blown alcoholism. But I can see why the study picked that as a threshold.
- nothrabannosir 7y ago
  A 25ml (.8oz) shot of 40% proof is 1 unit. 4 of those per day is one hell of a “healthy habit”. I don’t know how large beer bottles are in the US, but 330ml (11.2oz) at 7% is 2.3 units. (These are all European measurements, if that makes a difference. The NHS is in the U.K., though, where 1 unit = 10 ml of pure alcohol).
- standardUser 7y ago
  Alcoholism is a compulsion to drink alcohol, not a count of how much alcohol a person consumes in a given time period.
didibus 7y ago
To be honest, I've never head of health issues caused by alcohol beyond the possibility of your liver failing. So I suspect, if you stay within liver failure bounds, you're good to go in terms of health. I'm ignoring here the fact that drinking more might cause a cascading effect of bad habits, like eating more, exercising less, sleeping less, etc. Here I assume that you'd drink, but not degenerate your other habits as a consequence.
- JackRabbitSlim 7y ago
  It's pretty conclusively bad for brain health; alcoholics hands aren't shaking from weak liver function... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471489204001924 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S147148920...
  - didibus 7y ago
    Had never heard of that before. Thanks for the link. So its probably that brain damage also only happens at levels that put the liver at risk, and maybe that's why this isn't observed in the OP study?
    - overflow897 7y ago
      There are studies that show even moderate alcohol usage can have a damaging effect. And any amount of alcohol has been shown to raise risk of cancer. https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353 https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353 The consensus is slowly moving towards there not being a healthy amount of alcohol consumption. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31571-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- astura 7y ago
  Beyond liver failure excessive alcohol use causes throat and mouth cancer as well as pancreatitis at the very least.
  - 7y ago
tluyben2 7y ago
Is alcoholism not actual dependency on alcohol? As in not being able to leave it from one day to the next? If people drink 15 beers/day it is unhealthy but if they can quit tomorrow for months (or ever), it is not alcoholism right? Many people know it's unhealthy to consume enormous amounts during december (I know plenty who do a few bottles of wine per day per person) and then just quit 2nd of January. As far as I can see on the definition of alcoholism, that is not alcoholism... There is no dependency; they just like to be drunk for a month... And stuff themselves with fat. A lot of people all over the world (if they can afford it) do. And 4 units/day (which is not 4 beers in many cases, it is less, but let's say it is) is something a lot of people do; they are, again, not dependent on it. Doing damage is something else. I think no alcohol (at all) (+no/little refined sugar, processed food, stress laden work, too much fat, smoking anything, living in smog infested cities, driving motorcycles etc etc) are better, but that's just a feeling; the 'advice' seems to change every few years. One year wine is good for your cardiovascular system, one year it's bad. And the amounts vary too. Etc.
- DenisM 7y ago
  Ok, so it doesn't apply to your friends then? I am talking about daily drinking - the topic article promulgates it as "healthy". Someone who "could stop drinking any time" and yet drinks every day year-round is de-facto addicted - among all the possible things they could do in the evening they always chose to do the same exact thing. Many addicts are high-functioning, but they are still addicts.
  - austingulati 7y ago
    FWIW the rest of the recommendation by the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) is no more than 14 drinks per week for men and 7 drinks per week for women. So, they are not advising that 4 drinks per day every day for a week is safe.
    - DenisM 7y ago
      The article does not mention the weekly limit though, which is typical - 4 units per day is mentioned often and the second limit is hardly mentioned at all.

by DenisM 7y ago

dragonwriter 7y ago

> This part Of “stay healthy” advice has always puzzled me - it looks like full blown alcoholism. Am I way off? Yes, probably because you are mistaking a not-more-on-any-day-than level for a constant-consumption-every-day level. Oh, and also confusing addiction with level of consumption.

vzidex 7y ago

I think the idea is that full-blown alcoholism is what really destroys your body. That being said, the link is definitely inconclusive - this is the article I always think of when thinking about alcohol [1]. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401

gowld 7y ago

There's slow low key buzz in afternoon/evening, evening and there's overloading your liver binging. Also those numbers are not adjusted for body size. Some non-obese people weigh 100lb and some weigh 260lb.

vkou 7y ago

4 units is not 4 beers. A single 7% beer bottle is 3 units. 9 beers a week is... Not quite full-blown alcoholism. But I can see why the study picked that as a threshold.

nothrabannosir 7y ago
A 25ml (.8oz) shot of 40% proof is 1 unit. 4 of those per day is one hell of a “healthy habit”. I don’t know how large beer bottles are in the US, but 330ml (11.2oz) at 7% is 2.3 units. (These are all European measurements, if that makes a difference. The NHS is in the U.K., though, where 1 unit = 10 ml of pure alcohol).
standardUser 7y ago
Alcoholism is a compulsion to drink alcohol, not a count of how much alcohol a person consumes in a given time period.

didibus 7y ago

To be honest, I've never head of health issues caused by alcohol beyond the possibility of your liver failing. So I suspect, if you stay within liver failure bounds, you're good to go in terms of health. I'm ignoring here the fact that drinking more might cause a cascading effect of bad habits, like eating more, exercising less, sleeping less, etc. Here I assume that you'd drink, but not degenerate your other habits as a consequence.

JackRabbitSlim 7y ago
It's pretty conclusively bad for brain health; alcoholics hands aren't shaking from weak liver function... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471489204001924 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S147148920...
- didibus 7y ago
  Had never heard of that before. Thanks for the link. So its probably that brain damage also only happens at levels that put the liver at risk, and maybe that's why this isn't observed in the OP study?
  - overflow897 7y ago
    There are studies that show even moderate alcohol usage can have a damaging effect. And any amount of alcohol has been shown to raise risk of cancer. https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353 https://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2353 The consensus is slowly moving towards there not being a healthy amount of alcohol consumption. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31571-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
astura 7y ago
Beyond liver failure excessive alcohol use causes throat and mouth cancer as well as pancreatitis at the very least.
- 7y ago

tluyben2 7y ago

Is alcoholism not actual dependency on alcohol? As in not being able to leave it from one day to the next? If people drink 15 beers/day it is unhealthy but if they can quit tomorrow for months (or ever), it is not alcoholism right? Many people know it's unhealthy to consume enormous amounts during december (I know plenty who do a few bottles of wine per day per person) and then just quit 2nd of January. As far as I can see on the definition of alcoholism, that is not alcoholism... There is no dependency; they just like to be drunk for a month... And stuff themselves with fat. A lot of people all over the world (if they can afford it) do. And 4 units/day (which is not 4 beers in many cases, it is less, but let's say it is) is something a lot of people do; they are, again, not dependent on it. Doing damage is something else. I think no alcohol (at all) (+no/little refined sugar, processed food, stress laden work, too much fat, smoking anything, living in smog infested cities, driving motorcycles etc etc) are better, but that's just a feeling; the 'advice' seems to change every few years. One year wine is good for your cardiovascular system, one year it's bad. And the amounts vary too. Etc.

DenisM 7y ago
Ok, so it doesn't apply to your friends then? I am talking about daily drinking - the topic article promulgates it as "healthy". Someone who "could stop drinking any time" and yet drinks every day year-round is de-facto addicted - among all the possible things they could do in the evening they always chose to do the same exact thing. Many addicts are high-functioning, but they are still addicts.
- austingulati 7y ago
  FWIW the rest of the recommendation by the NIAAA (National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism) is no more than 14 drinks per week for men and 7 drinks per week for women. So, they are not advising that 4 drinks per day every day for a week is safe.
  - DenisM 7y ago
    The article does not mention the weekly limit though, which is typical - 4 units per day is mentioned often and the second limit is hardly mentioned at all.