3 ms·

Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore,

by rpiguy 7y ago

Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore, 1/2 of the men take prescription pain medication daily. The government benefits certainly make it easier to not work, but the article does pain to say that correlation is not causation - it is a multi-factor phenomenon. Government benefits may enable the behavior but it isn't a cause. What really had my brain going is why is this not the case in the Western Europe? Social benefits are just as generous and marriage rates are lower than in the United States. According to the article in the US marriage and children were the strongest statistical differentiator between men who stop seeking work and those that do. All I could come up with is that in the US it is the pain medication and the fact that it is easier to isolate yourself and hole up in your home.

Miner49er 7y ago
Could be the difference in pay for low wage jobs. It seems that this is what it comes down to. Many male, high-school dropouts have decided it's a better deal to just coast by on disability and money from friends/family then to work for $10/hour at McDonald's or similar. The way to bring them back into the workforce, IMO, is to offer them a better deal. If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  Another person commented below what I think is brilliant insight. "In America (USA) you ARE your job; it defines you. The American Way is to be hard working and self sufficient. If you can't do that, there are tremendous psychological effects. You can't blame these men for giving up." It is absolutely true that worth and career are highly correlated here in the US. Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work. I think this is probably the big difference between US and Europe having read it.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    Meh. The idea that Americans talk only about their job is mainly only true in the upper classes of professionals. Most Americans, the poor and lower middle class, do not talk about their jobs, because talking about being a taxi driver or walmart greeter is not as engaging as talking about being an investment banker, lawyer, or software engineer. FWIW, the same is true in Europe. Rich people define themselves by the method in which they get rich. > Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work People on hacker news are mostly upper middle class.
    - phkahler 7y ago
      Another way to phrase that is that jobs at the lower end are not worth talking about. They're not a point of pride. Combine that with the GP notion that people use their job as part of their identity and what does that do to their self esteem?
- burntoutfire 7y ago
  > If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them. Are you saying low wage wage jobs are good in EE? I can assure you that's not the case. Millions of low wage workes from EE left for Western Europe upon joining the EU. They still do low wage work, but the pay is so much higher in the UK, Germany, Norway etc.
tathougies 7y ago
> What really had my brain going is why is this not the case in the Western Europe? Can you explain? Western Europe by and large suffers from the same problem. According to Brookings (https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ccf_20170517_declining_labor_force_participation_sawhill1.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ccf_201...), while the US has a faster rate of male labor de-participation, the UK, Canada, and France are experiencing similar issues (Figure 2). No idea about the cause though.
- rpiguy 7y ago
  The article says that in Western Europe the rate at which men drop out is much lower than in the US. I only had the article as a frame of reference for my question, I did not have the Brookings institution study for additional color. Interesting reading, thank you.
hondo77 7y ago
> Disability is a federal benefit (not state)... Maybe in the state in which you live. I am currently on state (CA) disability.
- frank2 7y ago
  -- which will expire after you've been on it for 52 weeks [1] after which, if you still cannot work, you can resort to (US) federal disability insurance. [1] https://ca.db101.org/ca/programs/income_support/sdi/faqs.htm#_q42 https://ca.db101.org/ca/programs/income_support/sdi/faqs.htm...
j-c-hewitt 7y ago
In Europe the benefits are not necessarily tied to being diagnosed with a disabling condition. In the US they are, so people do what they can to manifest a disabling condition so that they can qualify for generous benefits along with drugs that can be resold on the black market. Clearly this was not the intended result but it's sort of a third rail politically so there has been no real movement towards reforming this in any meaningful direction.
MandieD 7y ago
In Germany, you can receive partial disability benefits ("Erwerbsminderungsrente"); that is, you might be evaluated as being capable of 3-6 hours of work per day, and thus receive only a portion of what would have been your full disability payment. Also, it's accepted (even hoped) that you might become fully fit again. https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/EN/Leistungen/leistungen.html https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/EN/Leistungen... (under "Invalidity pension") More details in German: https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/DE/Rente/Allgemeine-Informationen/Rentenarten-und-Leistungen/Erwerbsminderungsrente/erwerbsminderungsrente_node.html https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/DE/Rente/Allg...

by rpiguy 7y ago

Miner49er 7y ago

Could be the difference in pay for low wage jobs. It seems that this is what it comes down to. Many male, high-school dropouts have decided it's a better deal to just coast by on disability and money from friends/family then to work for $10/hour at McDonald's or similar. The way to bring them back into the workforce, IMO, is to offer them a better deal. If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them.

rpiguy 7y ago
Another person commented below what I think is brilliant insight. "In America (USA) you ARE your job; it defines you. The American Way is to be hard working and self sufficient. If you can't do that, there are tremendous psychological effects. You can't blame these men for giving up." It is absolutely true that worth and career are highly correlated here in the US. Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work. I think this is probably the big difference between US and Europe having read it.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Meh. The idea that Americans talk only about their job is mainly only true in the upper classes of professionals. Most Americans, the poor and lower middle class, do not talk about their jobs, because talking about being a taxi driver or walmart greeter is not as engaging as talking about being an investment banker, lawyer, or software engineer. FWIW, the same is true in Europe. Rich people define themselves by the method in which they get rich. > Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work People on hacker news are mostly upper middle class.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    Another way to phrase that is that jobs at the lower end are not worth talking about. They're not a point of pride. Combine that with the GP notion that people use their job as part of their identity and what does that do to their self esteem?
burntoutfire 7y ago
> If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them. Are you saying low wage wage jobs are good in EE? I can assure you that's not the case. Millions of low wage workes from EE left for Western Europe upon joining the EU. They still do low wage work, but the pay is so much higher in the UK, Germany, Norway etc.

tathougies 7y ago

> What really had my brain going is why is this not the case in the Western Europe? Can you explain? Western Europe by and large suffers from the same problem. According to Brookings (https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ccf_20170517_declining_labor_force_participation_sawhill1.pdf https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ccf_201...), while the US has a faster rate of male labor de-participation, the UK, Canada, and France are experiencing similar issues (Figure 2). No idea about the cause though.

rpiguy 7y ago
The article says that in Western Europe the rate at which men drop out is much lower than in the US. I only had the article as a frame of reference for my question, I did not have the Brookings institution study for additional color. Interesting reading, thank you.

hondo77 7y ago

> Disability is a federal benefit (not state)... Maybe in the state in which you live. I am currently on state (CA) disability.

frank2 7y ago
-- which will expire after you've been on it for 52 weeks [1] after which, if you still cannot work, you can resort to (US) federal disability insurance. [1] https://ca.db101.org/ca/programs/income_support/sdi/faqs.htm#_q42 https://ca.db101.org/ca/programs/income_support/sdi/faqs.htm...

j-c-hewitt 7y ago

In Europe the benefits are not necessarily tied to being diagnosed with a disabling condition. In the US they are, so people do what they can to manifest a disabling condition so that they can qualify for generous benefits along with drugs that can be resold on the black market. Clearly this was not the intended result but it's sort of a third rail politically so there has been no real movement towards reforming this in any meaningful direction.

MandieD 7y ago

In Germany, you can receive partial disability benefits ("Erwerbsminderungsrente"); that is, you might be evaluated as being capable of 3-6 hours of work per day, and thus receive only a portion of what would have been your full disability payment. Also, it's accepted (even hoped) that you might become fully fit again. https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/EN/Leistungen/leistungen.html https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/EN/Leistungen... (under "Invalidity pension") More details in German: https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/DE/Rente/Allgemeine-Informationen/Rentenarten-und-Leistungen/Erwerbsminderungsrente/erwerbsminderungsrente_node.html https://www.deutsche-rentenversicherung.de/DRV/DE/Rente/Allg...