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I think male socialization has left many men poorly-equipped to deal with the modern workplace. Prior to the information age, the primary challenges in the work

I think male socialization has left many men poorly-equipped to deal with the modern workplace. Prior to the information age, the primary challenges in the workplace were physical or motivational. So an attitude of "be tough and work through the hard times" was effective and allowed you to earn a living. Boorish behavior was tolerated or even celebrated as "male bonding". But as women entered more professions, that behavior became divisive. In the modern workplace, the primary challenges are emotional, and I don't think a lot of men have the tools to deal with them. Many men never had to learn how to deal with anxiety, fear, uncertainty or anger. Bad behavior from men was tolerated or even celebrated until recently. What worked to get them where they are is no longer appropriate going forward. So it's no wonder more men are opting out of work altogether because they feel they are in a no-win situation. You see a lot of this in "incel" communities where many self-deprecatingly refer to themselves as "neets" (no employment, education or training). To be clear here, I'm not blaming men as this is a societal problem. It does not affect all or even most men. This is part of the "toxic" aspect of "toxic masculinity" -- it harms men just as much as it harms women, only in different ways. It is possible to undo, but it takes years of therapy and a commitment to "be better" in the face of misleading signals that say you don't have to change / compromise.

at_a_remove 7y ago
What male socialization? Who are our teachers in the United States? Over three-quarters are women, less than a quarter men. And given that recent studies indicate that women teachers tend to rate boys (unfairly) lower than girls for the same performance, that's women's socialization teaching boys how to behave in schools. Societally? Go on, search to see what doodles Google made for Father's Day. Which parent seems to have the final say in the courts? Again, we seem to default to Mother Knows Best. What about relationships? US society seems to have ceded the ground entirely to Venus. So very, very many "men are stupid" posts on Twitter and it does not seem to have an end in sight. Men's clubs? Legislated away wherever possible, on the grounds that it granted men an unfair business advantage. Meanwhile, an organization set up for women in business and creating a co-working space for them had members complain that men are showing up, with a startling lack of self-awareness. Perhaps this is female socialization not working for boys and men.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  Not sure you really understand my point; "male socialization" is simply "the way we raise boys" -- which includes the ways we as a society neglect their needs. This isn't a "men versus women" thing, but rather a "we need to pay better attention to boys' emotional needs" thing. When you don't, you teach them that their emotions don't matter and aren't a thing they need to manage to have a healthy, happy life.
  - at_a_remove 7y ago
    I'm not sure you understand my point: the way we raise boys has largely been ceded to women for a while now and heaping "toxic masculinity" (really, when was the last time you saw the second word without the first tugging it along?) shaming on men is just more of the same. We need less of it.
    - wayoutthere 7y ago
      Thanks for proving my point that some men need to learn the skills to be less fragile and entitled. Playing the victim card based on 1950s stereotypes helps nobody and plenty of men are deeply invested in raising their children.
ecoled_ame 7y ago
So true. As I entered the workforce I was amazed at how different the challenges I faced were from what I had expected before working in an office/lab setting. I feel like I’m constantly feeling out & soothing the emotions of the people (mostly women and men with whom I would probably get along with in an all-male setting). I’m not good at public relations and frankly I don’t want to be - I wanted to be a scientist. But instead I feel like I am a kid at a daycare.
cmdshiftf4 7y ago
>It is possible to undo, but it takes years of therapy and a commitment to "be better" in the face of misleading signals that say you don't have to change / compromise. You and I know both know this is uttered with no foundation and amounts to nonsense. There isn't studies to show the effectiveness of "years of therapy" for a "condition" made up in the last decade with little beyond the historical treatment of women in the workplace by men to point to. You're also fully aware that there's absolutely nothing of substance to point to showing that traditional concepts of masculinity was damaging to other men in the workplace until it was pointed to as discomforting or exclusionary to for women new to the same workplace, and is now being retrofit to try and make the term more inclusive to get more people on board with a concept that has little foundation or backing in... well... anything. You bring some social science studies proving the existence of "toxic masculinity" and its effects on both women and men that have survived the replication problem, plus therapy studies showing how to effectively "undo" the problems from those studies that themselves have survived the replication problem, and I'll happily commend you for changing my mind on it.
ThrowawayR2 7y ago
On a meta-level, I have to say I am a bit mystified as to why use of the phrase "toxic masculinity" is tolerated on HN. It is not a generally recognized medical phenomenon nor recognized by the general public as an issue outside of a small group. Moreover, were a poster to attach "toxic" to any other gender, race, or creed, they would be justly pilloried by HN readers and the moderators would quickly take action. @dang/@sctb, "toxic masculinity" is also one of those politically and socially charged phrases that tend to "generate more heat than light", as I believe one of you once said. I will echo a recent post by tptacek that dang responded to; it wastes the time of commenters and I ask you to reconsider permitting its use on HN.
- non-entity 7y ago
  > is also one of those politically and socially charged phrases that tend to "generate more heat than light" And that seems to be quite popular on HN recently

at_a_remove 7y ago

What male socialization? Who are our teachers in the United States? Over three-quarters are women, less than a quarter men. And given that recent studies indicate that women teachers tend to rate boys (unfairly) lower than girls for the same performance, that's women's socialization teaching boys how to behave in schools. Societally? Go on, search to see what doodles Google made for Father's Day. Which parent seems to have the final say in the courts? Again, we seem to default to Mother Knows Best. What about relationships? US society seems to have ceded the ground entirely to Venus. So very, very many "men are stupid" posts on Twitter and it does not seem to have an end in sight. Men's clubs? Legislated away wherever possible, on the grounds that it granted men an unfair business advantage. Meanwhile, an organization set up for women in business and creating a co-working space for them had members complain that men are showing up, with a startling lack of self-awareness. Perhaps this is female socialization not working for boys and men.

wayoutthere 7y ago
Not sure you really understand my point; "male socialization" is simply "the way we raise boys" -- which includes the ways we as a society neglect their needs. This isn't a "men versus women" thing, but rather a "we need to pay better attention to boys' emotional needs" thing. When you don't, you teach them that their emotions don't matter and aren't a thing they need to manage to have a healthy, happy life.
- at_a_remove 7y ago
  I'm not sure you understand my point: the way we raise boys has largely been ceded to women for a while now and heaping "toxic masculinity" (really, when was the last time you saw the second word without the first tugging it along?) shaming on men is just more of the same. We need less of it.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    Thanks for proving my point that some men need to learn the skills to be less fragile and entitled. Playing the victim card based on 1950s stereotypes helps nobody and plenty of men are deeply invested in raising their children.

ecoled_ame 7y ago

So true. As I entered the workforce I was amazed at how different the challenges I faced were from what I had expected before working in an office/lab setting. I feel like I’m constantly feeling out & soothing the emotions of the people (mostly women and men with whom I would probably get along with in an all-male setting). I’m not good at public relations and frankly I don’t want to be - I wanted to be a scientist. But instead I feel like I am a kid at a daycare.

cmdshiftf4 7y ago

>It is possible to undo, but it takes years of therapy and a commitment to "be better" in the face of misleading signals that say you don't have to change / compromise. You and I know both know this is uttered with no foundation and amounts to nonsense. There isn't studies to show the effectiveness of "years of therapy" for a "condition" made up in the last decade with little beyond the historical treatment of women in the workplace by men to point to. You're also fully aware that there's absolutely nothing of substance to point to showing that traditional concepts of masculinity was damaging to other men in the workplace until it was pointed to as discomforting or exclusionary to for women new to the same workplace, and is now being retrofit to try and make the term more inclusive to get more people on board with a concept that has little foundation or backing in... well... anything. You bring some social science studies proving the existence of "toxic masculinity" and its effects on both women and men that have survived the replication problem, plus therapy studies showing how to effectively "undo" the problems from those studies that themselves have survived the replication problem, and I'll happily commend you for changing my mind on it.

ThrowawayR2 7y ago

On a meta-level, I have to say I am a bit mystified as to why use of the phrase "toxic masculinity" is tolerated on HN. It is not a generally recognized medical phenomenon nor recognized by the general public as an issue outside of a small group. Moreover, were a poster to attach "toxic" to any other gender, race, or creed, they would be justly pilloried by HN readers and the moderators would quickly take action. @dang/@sctb, "toxic masculinity" is also one of those politically and socially charged phrases that tend to "generate more heat than light", as I believe one of you once said. I will echo a recent post by tptacek that dang responded to; it wastes the time of commenters and I ask you to reconsider permitting its use on HN.

non-entity 7y ago
> is also one of those politically and socially charged phrases that tend to "generate more heat than light" And that seems to be quite popular on HN recently