5 ms·

You make it sound like the providers giving you a modem is a bad thing. This is a good thing. You as the consumer just needs to buy a decent router, and it's yo

You make it sound like the providers giving you a modem is a bad thing. This is a good thing. You as the consumer just needs to buy a decent router, and it's your ISPs responsibility to maintain the modem. If you have a decent router you have nothing to worry about. You can simply consider an attack on your modem an attack on your ISP. All ISPs I've ever seen in the US allow you to use your own router.

smileysteve 7y ago
At a $5+/mo fee for items that normally sell for $60 it seems like profit seeking behavior. Comcast at least now made equipment returns easier though ups franchises, historically, it could take hours at an under staffed, low budget facility to return a item. And if you didn't you'd often expect to argue with collections.
- behringer 7y ago
  5/mo is 120 over 2 years, which is imo the expected life on a modem. Now of course some last 5 years or more, but then some last 6 months. I think 60/year is a decent price for a 100 percent satisfaction guaranteed working modem.
  - heydabop 7y ago
    > which is imo the expected life on a modem Then buy better modems. My current modem is 4 years old and functions as well as it did on day 1. If they weren't making money on it they wouldn't sell it to you as an option. Sure the "insurance" might be nice, but overtime they're making money off of you.
  - mavhc 7y ago
    Where are you living where modems die every 2 years? My cable modem/wifi router from ISP is about 5 years old. Can't use your own cable modem in UK. They don't list providing of the modem as a line item on the bill either
    - tinus_hn 7y ago
      Officially the EU requires allowing customers to use their own modem if they want to. If the ISP setup requires registering MAC addresses they are obligated to register your personal modem and if a weird setup is required they have to document everything and notify you in advance of changes.
      - gog 7y ago
        Do you have any more details about this? A link or what to search for would be also great.
        tinus_hn 7y ago
        The directive is 2008/63/EG. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32008L0063 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...
        mavhc 7y ago
        Can only see one example of someone asking about that on google.
        tinus_hn 7y ago
        I do not understand what you mean by that. Note that these directives force the member states to adopt their own laws implementing them. They do not directly affect people, only indirectly. So if people want to invoke the rights they have to cite the national law implementing the directive.
        mavhc 7y ago
        The response in the UK is always "you can't do that", so either the UK hasn't implemented the law, or no one cares
  - smileysteve 7y ago
    > for a 100 percent satisfaction guaranteed working modem. Importantly, the company I mention historically had such a bad satisfaction experience that it was rated lowest for customer experience. Such issues that they rebranded. With their contractor model it was regularly the experience of customers that the install goes through 2 or 3 cheap cable modems until one worked; in combination with their Mac locking, dns poisoning data caps, almost daily scheduled downtimes. Though I'm still not sure how it's a decent price to pay $120 for something that retails for $60.
    - behringer 7y ago
      Satisfaction guaranteed. Don't like the service? Move along, you're out very little/nothing.
      - insulanus 7y ago
        This would be a good argument if: * there was any choice in the market * my satisfaction was actually guaranteed * The cost of switching was low (it will take at least a day of coordination to end one service, and start the second)
- edoceo 7y ago
  Comcast in Washington is $10/mo
- enobrev 7y ago
  Here's a fun trick Comcast is now playing with in Chicago. For unlimited data, it costs $50 a month if you're using your own modem, but using Comcast's modem, I get a "discounted" rate of $20 a month including the modem rental. It's their way of charging me to use my own modem (which I believe is illegal), hidden behind the ruse of it being a discount to rent theirs.
LeonM 7y ago
> You can simply consider an attack on your modem an attack on your ISP. Never thought about it that way. I agree. > All ISPs I've ever seen in the US allow you to use your own router. I'm not familiar with the US market, I was speaking from my personal experience with EU based ISPs. I should have made that clear.
- Vrondi 7y ago
  In the USA, you can use your own router and your own modem, if you are aware enough to do so. Most common people just use whatever the ISP hands them, and pay $5 per month or more for years on end for the privilege of using boxes that never get updated.
ken 7y ago
Likewise, you make it seem like ISPs are competent enough to recognize an attacked modem, and repair or replace it on demand, and promptly. My experience is that when your internet connection goes down or becomes unusable, and you call and complain, it can be literally several weeks before they even respond to you. They may technically own the modem but you’re in your own to keep it running.
- behringer 7y ago
  Not my experience. My parents are stuck with Comcast due to their monopoly and even they bend over backwards to fix my parents recent issues (hardware failure). Sure it took a couple weeks, but it a couple weeks of troubleshooting, testing, a couple visits, some hardware replacements. People expect these repair installers to be miracle workers, but sometimes an intermittent fault takes time.
- derefr 7y ago
  > competent enough to recognize an attacked modem, and repair or replace it on demand The cable modems I've interacted with all seem to be immutable infrastructure: their state consists of 1. a signed firmware image; 2. a DOCSIS initialization packet received upon network registration (essentially equivalent to a cellular "carrier profile"); 3. a set of saved preferences; and 4. some volatile working state, like ARP tables or WPA encryption-stream key state. #4 gets trashed on reboot; #3 shouldn't be large enough (or executable) in a way where programs can run from it; #2 gets overwritten every time the network reconnects; and so the only place to put a persistent malware vector should be #1. And #1 can only be written to using signed code (sort of like Intel CPU microcode.) So what's the problem that can't be solved by rebooting the modem?

smileysteve 7y ago

At a $5+/mo fee for items that normally sell for $60 it seems like profit seeking behavior. Comcast at least now made equipment returns easier though ups franchises, historically, it could take hours at an under staffed, low budget facility to return a item. And if you didn't you'd often expect to argue with collections.

behringer 7y ago
5/mo is 120 over 2 years, which is imo the expected life on a modem. Now of course some last 5 years or more, but then some last 6 months. I think 60/year is a decent price for a 100 percent satisfaction guaranteed working modem.
- heydabop 7y ago
  > which is imo the expected life on a modem Then buy better modems. My current modem is 4 years old and functions as well as it did on day 1. If they weren't making money on it they wouldn't sell it to you as an option. Sure the "insurance" might be nice, but overtime they're making money off of you.
- mavhc 7y ago
  Where are you living where modems die every 2 years? My cable modem/wifi router from ISP is about 5 years old. Can't use your own cable modem in UK. They don't list providing of the modem as a line item on the bill either
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
    Officially the EU requires allowing customers to use their own modem if they want to. If the ISP setup requires registering MAC addresses they are obligated to register your personal modem and if a weird setup is required they have to document everything and notify you in advance of changes.
    - gog 7y ago
      Do you have any more details about this? A link or what to search for would be also great.
      - tinus_hn 7y ago
        The directive is 2008/63/EG. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32008L0063 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex:32...
        mavhc 7y ago
        Can only see one example of someone asking about that on google.
        tinus_hn 7y ago
        I do not understand what you mean by that. Note that these directives force the member states to adopt their own laws implementing them. They do not directly affect people, only indirectly. So if people want to invoke the rights they have to cite the national law implementing the directive.
        mavhc 7y ago
        The response in the UK is always "you can't do that", so either the UK hasn't implemented the law, or no one cares
- smileysteve 7y ago
  > for a 100 percent satisfaction guaranteed working modem. Importantly, the company I mention historically had such a bad satisfaction experience that it was rated lowest for customer experience. Such issues that they rebranded. With their contractor model it was regularly the experience of customers that the install goes through 2 or 3 cheap cable modems until one worked; in combination with their Mac locking, dns poisoning data caps, almost daily scheduled downtimes. Though I'm still not sure how it's a decent price to pay $120 for something that retails for $60.
  - behringer 7y ago
    Satisfaction guaranteed. Don't like the service? Move along, you're out very little/nothing.
    - insulanus 7y ago
      This would be a good argument if: * there was any choice in the market * my satisfaction was actually guaranteed * The cost of switching was low (it will take at least a day of coordination to end one service, and start the second)
edoceo 7y ago
Comcast in Washington is $10/mo
enobrev 7y ago
Here's a fun trick Comcast is now playing with in Chicago. For unlimited data, it costs $50 a month if you're using your own modem, but using Comcast's modem, I get a "discounted" rate of $20 a month including the modem rental. It's their way of charging me to use my own modem (which I believe is illegal), hidden behind the ruse of it being a discount to rent theirs.

LeonM 7y ago

> You can simply consider an attack on your modem an attack on your ISP. Never thought about it that way. I agree. > All ISPs I've ever seen in the US allow you to use your own router. I'm not familiar with the US market, I was speaking from my personal experience with EU based ISPs. I should have made that clear.

Vrondi 7y ago
In the USA, you can use your own router and your own modem, if you are aware enough to do so. Most common people just use whatever the ISP hands them, and pay $5 per month or more for years on end for the privilege of using boxes that never get updated.

ken 7y ago

Likewise, you make it seem like ISPs are competent enough to recognize an attacked modem, and repair or replace it on demand, and promptly. My experience is that when your internet connection goes down or becomes unusable, and you call and complain, it can be literally several weeks before they even respond to you. They may technically own the modem but you’re in your own to keep it running.

behringer 7y ago
Not my experience. My parents are stuck with Comcast due to their monopoly and even they bend over backwards to fix my parents recent issues (hardware failure). Sure it took a couple weeks, but it a couple weeks of troubleshooting, testing, a couple visits, some hardware replacements. People expect these repair installers to be miracle workers, but sometimes an intermittent fault takes time.
derefr 7y ago
> competent enough to recognize an attacked modem, and repair or replace it on demand The cable modems I've interacted with all seem to be immutable infrastructure: their state consists of 1. a signed firmware image; 2. a DOCSIS initialization packet received upon network registration (essentially equivalent to a cellular "carrier profile"); 3. a set of saved preferences; and 4. some volatile working state, like ARP tables or WPA encryption-stream key state. #4 gets trashed on reboot; #3 shouldn't be large enough (or executable) in a way where programs can run from it; #2 gets overwritten every time the network reconnects; and so the only place to put a persistent malware vector should be #1. And #1 can only be written to using signed code (sort of like Intel CPU microcode.) So what's the problem that can't be solved by rebooting the modem?