6 ms·

Shouldn't a prototype city of the future be built around walking and public transit with cars being more of an afterthought?

mikece 7y ago
Not if it's built by a carmaker. Perhaps the point is to show that we'll never separate ourselves from personal transportation vehicles (cars) but the future of the symbiosis will be far smarter and efficient.
ehnto 7y ago
They're looking to use it to research the possibilities of integrating autonomous vehicles into cities more tightly I suspect. It makes sense that they're in no hurry to deprecate their own core business. What I find interesting is there wasn't really any illustrations of the reported three layer road system, and the majority of the illustrations are of huge, open walkable areas. I would love to see how they're looking to address separating slow speed traffic from high speed traffic while keeping them both useful.
big_chungus 7y ago
Walking around doesn't scale indefinitely. No form of transportation does, but walking scales significantly less. Plus, designing with public transit in mind makes it more accessible, which becomes a serious concern if you want anyone over sixty to live in your city.
- GolDDranks 7y ago
  I live in Tokyo, and for me, the combination of walking and a proper train network scales surprisingly well.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    I think that's what the parent is saying. Everybody wants to score virtue points for loving their feet or bike but at the end of the day you need to compliment that with some sort of public transit network to give them the distance covering power they need to be truly practical.
    - munmaek 7y ago
      I don't think anyone was arguing that. We obviously have to cover distances that are not practical for walking, so public transportation goes hand in hand with a walkable city. That is still a tremendous improvement over having to drive everywhere. The quality of life is so much better, it's almost indescribable.
  - that_jojo 7y ago
    It's disgusting how navigable most of Japan is. It makes even urban Europe seem like garbage.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
arjie 7y ago
It’s Japan. That’s just the city of the now.
- nihonde 7y ago
  Toyota city in Aichi is a pretty futuristic place already, even by Japanese standards. They even have a world-class modern art museum.
  - that_jojo 7y ago
    I'm not sure what you're talking about, here. Used to live in Nagoya and have been to Toyotashi many a time. It's a pretty average small Japanese city.
    - nihonde 7y ago
      Weird comment. I also lived there for many years. Odd that you feel the need to dispute my impression of a place. Says more about you than Toyota-shi.
  - BurningFrog 7y ago
    "Modern art includes artistic work produced during the period extending roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_art https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_art
    - whateveracct 7y ago
      That's "Modern art" not "modern art"
quotha 7y ago
Exactly, this is a big car company's idea of a city.
onion2k 7y ago
Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't think the car manufacturer Toyota is likely to build a city that doesn't focus on demonstrating how cars will continue to be a significant part of our, and their, future.
jmkni 7y ago
So, Amsterdam?
Patrick_Devine 7y ago
The irony here being that Japan already looks like this. It has wonderful public transportation and cars are almost non-existent in Tokyo and Osaka. You see a lot more cars in the outskirts and in smaller cities (like Kyoto) where they haven't hit critical mass, or there has been mismanagement of the transit infrastructure.
- rayiner 7y ago
  > It has wonderful public transportation and cars are almost non-existent in Tokyo and Osaka. What version of Tokyo have you been to? Cars are everywhere in Tokyo. A quarter of commuters drive alone.
  - streb-lo 7y ago
    > A quarter of commuters drive alone. That's really low compared to NA where even in a metro area I'd guess it's at least 50%.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      Sure, it's lower, but it's hardly "non-existent."
      - streb-lo 7y ago
        Non-existent is seemingly hyperbole (never been to Japan) but I can imagine it might be shocking if OP were from NA and he/she are actually witnessing traffic volumes cut in half or more.
        just_myles 7y ago
        Definitely not non-existent but can appear that way when you compare it to southern california.
  - Patrick_Devine 7y ago
    I'm not certain how to parse your comment. If 25% of people drive in Tokyo to commute, that means 75% of them don't, which supports my point. Compare that to most cities in North America where more than 85% of commuters drive.
flippyhead 7y ago
I don't understand why cars are bad. ICE are bad because they contribute to global warming, sure. But things that move small numbers of people to exactly where they want to go -- are those bad? In fact, a lot of science fiction I can think of describe Disney-style people mover things that quickly and efficiently take you exactly where you want to go. I guess they aren't exactly cars, but they aren't exactly trains either.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  Neighbourhoods built to car-scale rather than human-scale are isolating and hostile. Try walking to get lunch from a hotel or office park in suburban America and see how it feels. Regardless of gas or electric, cars are dangerous and kill more citizens than just about anything in modern society. Furthermore, encouraging people to drive everywhere rather than walking or cycling only exacerbates the obesity crisis (another major driver of mortality).
- munmaek 7y ago
  As someone who grew up in the States, I never really understood this either, until I lived in Korea and visited Japan. There, residential zoning is mixed with business zoning. There is no such thing as a "suburb", because you have apartments nestled right next to grocery stores, cafes, and restaurants. I don't think I ever had to walk more than 2-5 minutes to get to a convenience store. Cars still existed of course, but so many people walked, rode bikes, or took public transit. (It helps that both countries have extremely good public transit systems). Once I realized how nice life could be, I started hating suburbs. I hate having to drive 10-20+ minutes just to get food or groceries because the only thing around you is a vast sea of houses. I hate that public transit is basically nonexistent, or if it does exist, it's slow and not on time. I hate having to drive, which is both unsafe and prohibits me from studying or getting work done, because I have to pay attention to the road. Centering around a suburb model is one of the US's greatest structural failures.
- SilasX 7y ago
  Cars per se aren't bad. There are legitimate use cases they fill, even in majestically walkable cities. Their overuse, rather, is bad.

mikece 7y ago

Not if it's built by a carmaker. Perhaps the point is to show that we'll never separate ourselves from personal transportation vehicles (cars) but the future of the symbiosis will be far smarter and efficient.

ehnto 7y ago

They're looking to use it to research the possibilities of integrating autonomous vehicles into cities more tightly I suspect. It makes sense that they're in no hurry to deprecate their own core business. What I find interesting is there wasn't really any illustrations of the reported three layer road system, and the majority of the illustrations are of huge, open walkable areas. I would love to see how they're looking to address separating slow speed traffic from high speed traffic while keeping them both useful.

big_chungus 7y ago

Walking around doesn't scale indefinitely. No form of transportation does, but walking scales significantly less. Plus, designing with public transit in mind makes it more accessible, which becomes a serious concern if you want anyone over sixty to live in your city.

GolDDranks 7y ago
I live in Tokyo, and for me, the combination of walking and a proper train network scales surprisingly well.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  I think that's what the parent is saying. Everybody wants to score virtue points for loving their feet or bike but at the end of the day you need to compliment that with some sort of public transit network to give them the distance covering power they need to be truly practical.
  - munmaek 7y ago
    I don't think anyone was arguing that. We obviously have to cover distances that are not practical for walking, so public transportation goes hand in hand with a walkable city. That is still a tremendous improvement over having to drive everywhere. The quality of life is so much better, it's almost indescribable.
- that_jojo 7y ago
  It's disgusting how navigable most of Japan is. It makes even urban Europe seem like garbage.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

arjie 7y ago

It’s Japan. That’s just the city of the now.

nihonde 7y ago
Toyota city in Aichi is a pretty futuristic place already, even by Japanese standards. They even have a world-class modern art museum.
- that_jojo 7y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about, here. Used to live in Nagoya and have been to Toyotashi many a time. It's a pretty average small Japanese city.
  - nihonde 7y ago
    Weird comment. I also lived there for many years. Odd that you feel the need to dispute my impression of a place. Says more about you than Toyota-shi.
- BurningFrog 7y ago
  "Modern art includes artistic work produced during the period extending roughly from the 1860s to the 1970s" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_art https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_art
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    That's "Modern art" not "modern art"

quotha 7y ago

Exactly, this is a big car company's idea of a city.

onion2k 7y ago

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I don't think the car manufacturer Toyota is likely to build a city that doesn't focus on demonstrating how cars will continue to be a significant part of our, and their, future.

jmkni 7y ago

So, Amsterdam?

Patrick_Devine 7y ago

The irony here being that Japan already looks like this. It has wonderful public transportation and cars are almost non-existent in Tokyo and Osaka. You see a lot more cars in the outskirts and in smaller cities (like Kyoto) where they haven't hit critical mass, or there has been mismanagement of the transit infrastructure.

rayiner 7y ago
> It has wonderful public transportation and cars are almost non-existent in Tokyo and Osaka. What version of Tokyo have you been to? Cars are everywhere in Tokyo. A quarter of commuters drive alone.
- streb-lo 7y ago
  > A quarter of commuters drive alone. That's really low compared to NA where even in a metro area I'd guess it's at least 50%.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    Sure, it's lower, but it's hardly "non-existent."
    - streb-lo 7y ago
      Non-existent is seemingly hyperbole (never been to Japan) but I can imagine it might be shocking if OP were from NA and he/she are actually witnessing traffic volumes cut in half or more.
      - just_myles 7y ago
        Definitely not non-existent but can appear that way when you compare it to southern california.
- Patrick_Devine 7y ago
  I'm not certain how to parse your comment. If 25% of people drive in Tokyo to commute, that means 75% of them don't, which supports my point. Compare that to most cities in North America where more than 85% of commuters drive.

flippyhead 7y ago

I don't understand why cars are bad. ICE are bad because they contribute to global warming, sure. But things that move small numbers of people to exactly where they want to go -- are those bad? In fact, a lot of science fiction I can think of describe Disney-style people mover things that quickly and efficiently take you exactly where you want to go. I guess they aren't exactly cars, but they aren't exactly trains either.

ForHackernews 7y ago
Neighbourhoods built to car-scale rather than human-scale are isolating and hostile. Try walking to get lunch from a hotel or office park in suburban America and see how it feels. Regardless of gas or electric, cars are dangerous and kill more citizens than just about anything in modern society. Furthermore, encouraging people to drive everywhere rather than walking or cycling only exacerbates the obesity crisis (another major driver of mortality).
munmaek 7y ago
As someone who grew up in the States, I never really understood this either, until I lived in Korea and visited Japan. There, residential zoning is mixed with business zoning. There is no such thing as a "suburb", because you have apartments nestled right next to grocery stores, cafes, and restaurants. I don't think I ever had to walk more than 2-5 minutes to get to a convenience store. Cars still existed of course, but so many people walked, rode bikes, or took public transit. (It helps that both countries have extremely good public transit systems). Once I realized how nice life could be, I started hating suburbs. I hate having to drive 10-20+ minutes just to get food or groceries because the only thing around you is a vast sea of houses. I hate that public transit is basically nonexistent, or if it does exist, it's slow and not on time. I hate having to drive, which is both unsafe and prohibits me from studying or getting work done, because I have to pay attention to the road. Centering around a suburb model is one of the US's greatest structural failures.
SilasX 7y ago
Cars per se aren't bad. There are legitimate use cases they fill, even in majestically walkable cities. Their overuse, rather, is bad.