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Motorola (edit: and Google, Nokia, probably other) phones come without bloatware - vote with your wallets. (The preinstalled Moto apps are very small and actual

Motorola (edit: and Google, Nokia, probably other) phones come without bloatware - vote with your wallets. (The preinstalled Moto apps are very small and actually quite useful, like accelerometer-based gestures for quick acces to camera or flashlight) I buy phones as a platform for software, so it makes sense to pay attention to more than the hardware.

Waterluvian 7y ago
I got a moto because of this. It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled. Edit: some others I can't uninstall from my international, unlocked Moto G6: Google Drive, Duo, Chrome, YouTube,
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  Oh wow. My Moto phones never had anything like that. Moto G3, G5, and One Vision. Bought in Germany without contract. Edit: I don't see Google apps as an (additional) problem. Google already controls the phone and its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not active.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    International unlocked moto G6. I was wrong about Facebook. It's LinkedIn that cannot be uninstalled. I just checked now.
    - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
      Install a firewall and see if the LI app is phoning home when idle. That is the only way to fully cut off network access without going to LineageOS.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - franga2000 7y ago
    > its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not active The 20% of my battery used by Google Play Services, despite the fact that the only Google service I use on my phone is YouTube, disagrees
    - lostmsu 7y ago
      Then you should turn the location off. Might be also Store updating apps.
    - delecti 7y ago
      Google Play Services is a framework which other apps use. That battery usage is just imprecisely categorized usage of the other apps you have installed. Some of those apps might be Google's, but anything that wakes your phone or uses GPS will end up contributing a bit to that percentage.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Chrome is also the web engine for embedded web views. Even if you did uninstall Chrome, it wouldn’t do much good. The engine would still be there.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    The non tech part of me just wants the option to uninstall Chrome in order to remove it from the huge list of apps, updates, etc. Without having to configure a custom launcher.
    - petecox 7y ago
      Understood but the point being made is that your OEM will build AOSP with some ancient, say 2017 or whenever your device was released, embedded version of chromium - susceptible to security flaws from that release date. Chrome overlays a replacement engine to ensure webapps don't get p@wned. So yes, as a firefoxee, I never want to see the Chrome icon. However, purging Chrome is a security risk.
- quadrifoliate 7y ago
  > I got a moto because of this. It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled. Sorry, but WTF kind of world are we living in where a terrible professional network app being permanently stuck to your phone is regarded as almost no bloatware? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that Moto phones are low in bloatware; just that if it's this bad for Moto phones I can't even begin to imagine how bad it is for Samsung. I wonder how much LinkedIn is paying for that deal. I guess I'm glad I run either Google phones or Android One; highly recommended for your next phone. Vote with your wallets. The Android Ones are more affordable than the eye-watering prices Google charges for Pixels these days.
  - Waterluvian 7y ago
    I've become disenchanted with the whole industry. I don't even trust Google phones or Android One to be what I want in a phone. So I've reduced to the lowest common denominator in how to solve this problem: I've stopped caring. My phone is no-longer a highly customized piece of tech I'm glued to. It's pretty much default settings with a handful of extra apps installed. And to be honest, I kind of like it. I'm hoping to wean off a phone entirely and be able to shut it off and leave it on my desk when I'm at home.
    - tartoran 7y ago
      Get a flip phone, your habits will quickly change.
- mtgx 7y ago
  I've always liked Moto phones and I've owned and recommended some, too, but I can never EVER trust Lenovo again. I can't trust that even if the OS is "clean" on the surface, they don't have some hidden firmware backdoors in there. I just can't. They've forever lost my trust, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The same goes for Huawei, and I'm beginning to think the same about Xiaomi, too, after noticing how many of its own apps try to connect to its servers in China, including some very suspicious services. Like even the biometric framework tries to open a connection to Xiaomi's servers. WTF. Why would that EVER be needed, unless you're up to no good with that biometric data?! The discounted/government-subsidized Chinese smartphone prices are no longer worth it. Google seriously needs to put an end to this crap, consumers aren't aware of this unless they install their own firewall and know what the firewall is telling them. So if they aren't aware you can't even make the argument that they "don't care". Google needs to implement blanket protections against this data-stealing, and I'm not the only one who thinks so: https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/3320/open-letter-google https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/3320/open-letter-g...
- Emanation 7y ago
  They can be uninstalled... with a computer and android adb
- layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
  “It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled.” Sounds like a serious case of Stockholm syndrome.
  - NikolaeVarius 7y ago
    How? Stockholm syndrome is when a hostage befriends their captor, presumably thinking their captors cause is just. How is thinking that a situation is not "completely" terrible stockholm syndrome?
giomasce 7y ago
Or any manufacturer supported by LinegeOS.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  According to my research, LineageOS often has worse battery life and camera image quality. So you need to get very specific models which work best. Also you need to be willing to tinker a bit, obviously. Let me put it like this: if a geek friend had found a nice model and already figured out how to solve the expected problems, I'd probably get the same model.
chillydawg 7y ago
My pixel 3 (direct from google) has numerous uninstallable apps that I don't want.
NullPrefix 7y ago
>Nokia phones come without bloatware Chinese spyware is not bloatware? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449824
- milankragujevic 7y ago
  Was just going to say that.
ubercow13 7y ago
They are not good at updates, though.
grawprog 7y ago
My last two phones have been Motorola phones. I was really happy when I first seen the app drawer and was greeted by almost nothing. It made such a nice change from the obscene amount of crap that came installed on the two Samsungs I had previously. I don't think I actually disabled any of the preinstalled unremovable things on my Motorola and I even use some of them. Which is saying a lot.
farisjarrah 7y ago
I disagree, Google and Motorola branded phones most certainly DO come with bloatware. The Google app is not necessary for the phone's functionality(this is, if you don't use google assistant) and I can not uninstall it from my Pixel 2. This is true for many Google apps that Google would have you believe is necessary for the functionality of the phone. These are all the google apps that came preinstalled on my phone that I can't uninstall normally that are absolutely non-essential to have on a phone: Google Chrome( I use firefox) Google Drive (Fastmail) Google App (I can use Firefox as a search provider on android) Google Play Movies and TV Google Play Music Google Play Services for AR Google VR Services Playground Youtube (Frankly, with the amount of advertisements on Youtube these days, Firefox on android with ublock origin installed is a few better user experience then the actual YouTube app for android) These are just the apps that I personally have disabled, I am a fastmail user, so Gmail is getting disabled soon as well as Google Calendar. Even Google's "stock" Android on the Pixel phones has plently of blaotware. LineageOS has much less bloatware.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  You can disable them, which is the same thing as far as the user is concerned. Uninstalling from a read-only partition doesn't make sense.
  - jackewiehose 7y ago
    Then installing/deploying these apps on a read-only partition doesn't make much sense in the first place.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      Why? As far as the user is concerned, the end result is the same. The app doesn't appear in the app drawer, and none of its entry points are exposed to the OS. The user who just bought a phone gets a fully functional phone right out of the box instead of having to wait for downloads. A factory reset to get back to the initial state is as simple as wiping all writable partitions.
Barrin92 7y ago
>Motorola (edit: and Google, Nokia, probably other) phones come without bloatware - vote with your wallets. Yes, vote with your wallet, but also vote with your actual votes. I'd very much like to see a decision from the EU or FCC to finally stop this practice of making it impossible for people to remove the software from the phones they own. Consumer rights when it comes to mobile devices which are arguably already the primary platform for end users need to be extended. The extent to which businesses are able to lock down devices is just a disaster.
- el_nino 7y ago
  This might be a bit of a rabbit hole. My OnePlus has a relatively clean Android but comes with a few apps like Calculator, Notes, or Chrome that don't seem to be removable. They're also not core functionality. So I wonder how easy is it to draw the line between these and the crap that many phones come with. Also stuff like Play services or the Google Store are somewhat replaceable. How could these be categorized?
  - tjoff 7y ago
    So what if someone wants to remove a non-core functionality calculator? Let them.
- lobotryas 7y ago
  I wouldn’t. Why is the knee-jerk reaction to solve problems (especially trivial ones like this) with more red tape and bureaucracy? Remember that HN is a bubble. We might care about bloatware, but maybe millions of regular users don’t (or even find some of the bloat useful).
  - Barrin92 7y ago
    it wouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction given how long this has been an issue, and there is little to no bureaucracy or legislation involved other than telling companies what not to do with their consumer's devices. Giving users the right to delete applications is technically straight forward and involves zero additional bureaucrats. Honestly the only knee-jerk thing about this is describing freedom-enhancing measures in the interest of users with the absolutely meaningless 'red tape' buzzword. And I don't think this is a bubble issue either. People being frustrated with having applications fill up their menus or screens and memory is an everyday issue that everyone complains about.
rascul 7y ago
My Moto G6 came with a bunch of Moto apps, Facebook, a weather app, Google Drive, Gmail, Google Photos, and YouTube. All of which is unnecessary bloat that I can't uninstall, but I was able to disable without losing any functionality.
janpot 7y ago
vote with your vote and stop promoting consumerism as a form of democracy.

Waterluvian 7y ago

I got a moto because of this. It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled. Edit: some others I can't uninstall from my international, unlocked Moto G6: Google Drive, Duo, Chrome, YouTube,

ahartmetz 7y ago
Oh wow. My Moto phones never had anything like that. Moto G3, G5, and One Vision. Bought in Germany without contract. Edit: I don't see Google apps as an (additional) problem. Google already controls the phone and its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not active.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  International unlocked moto G6. I was wrong about Facebook. It's LinkedIn that cannot be uninstalled. I just checked now.
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    Install a firewall and see if the LI app is phoning home when idle. That is the only way to fully cut off network access without going to LineageOS.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- franga2000 7y ago
  > its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not active The 20% of my battery used by Google Play Services, despite the fact that the only Google service I use on my phone is YouTube, disagrees
  - lostmsu 7y ago
    Then you should turn the location off. Might be also Store updating apps.
  - delecti 7y ago
    Google Play Services is a framework which other apps use. That battery usage is just imprecisely categorized usage of the other apps you have installed. Some of those apps might be Google's, but anything that wakes your phone or uses GPS will end up contributing a bit to that percentage.
scarface74 7y ago
Chrome is also the web engine for embedded web views. Even if you did uninstall Chrome, it wouldn’t do much good. The engine would still be there.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  The non tech part of me just wants the option to uninstall Chrome in order to remove it from the huge list of apps, updates, etc. Without having to configure a custom launcher.
  - petecox 7y ago
    Understood but the point being made is that your OEM will build AOSP with some ancient, say 2017 or whenever your device was released, embedded version of chromium - susceptible to security flaws from that release date. Chrome overlays a replacement engine to ensure webapps don't get p@wned. So yes, as a firefoxee, I never want to see the Chrome icon. However, purging Chrome is a security risk.
quadrifoliate 7y ago
> I got a moto because of this. It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled. Sorry, but WTF kind of world are we living in where a terrible professional network app being permanently stuck to your phone is regarded as almost no bloatware? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that Moto phones are low in bloatware; just that if it's this bad for Moto phones I can't even begin to imagine how bad it is for Samsung. I wonder how much LinkedIn is paying for that deal. I guess I'm glad I run either Google phones or Android One; highly recommended for your next phone. Vote with your wallets. The Android Ones are more affordable than the eye-watering prices Google charges for Pixels these days.
- Waterluvian 7y ago
  I've become disenchanted with the whole industry. I don't even trust Google phones or Android One to be what I want in a phone. So I've reduced to the lowest common denominator in how to solve this problem: I've stopped caring. My phone is no-longer a highly customized piece of tech I'm glued to. It's pretty much default settings with a handful of extra apps installed. And to be honest, I kind of like it. I'm hoping to wean off a phone entirely and be able to shut it off and leave it on my desk when I'm at home.
  - tartoran 7y ago
    Get a flip phone, your habits will quickly change.
mtgx 7y ago
I've always liked Moto phones and I've owned and recommended some, too, but I can never EVER trust Lenovo again. I can't trust that even if the OS is "clean" on the surface, they don't have some hidden firmware backdoors in there. I just can't. They've forever lost my trust, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The same goes for Huawei, and I'm beginning to think the same about Xiaomi, too, after noticing how many of its own apps try to connect to its servers in China, including some very suspicious services. Like even the biometric framework tries to open a connection to Xiaomi's servers. WTF. Why would that EVER be needed, unless you're up to no good with that biometric data?! The discounted/government-subsidized Chinese smartphone prices are no longer worth it. Google seriously needs to put an end to this crap, consumers aren't aware of this unless they install their own firewall and know what the firewall is telling them. So if they aren't aware you can't even make the argument that they "don't care". Google needs to implement blanket protections against this data-stealing, and I'm not the only one who thinks so: https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/3320/open-letter-google https://privacyinternational.org/advocacy/3320/open-letter-g...
Emanation 7y ago
They can be uninstalled... with a computer and android adb
layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
“It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn, DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled.” Sounds like a serious case of Stockholm syndrome.
- NikolaeVarius 7y ago
  How? Stockholm syndrome is when a hostage befriends their captor, presumably thinking their captors cause is just. How is thinking that a situation is not "completely" terrible stockholm syndrome?

giomasce 7y ago

Or any manufacturer supported by LinegeOS.

ahartmetz 7y ago
According to my research, LineageOS often has worse battery life and camera image quality. So you need to get very specific models which work best. Also you need to be willing to tinker a bit, obviously. Let me put it like this: if a geek friend had found a nice model and already figured out how to solve the expected problems, I'd probably get the same model.

chillydawg 7y ago

My pixel 3 (direct from google) has numerous uninstallable apps that I don't want.

NullPrefix 7y ago

>Nokia phones come without bloatware Chinese spyware is not bloatware? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449824

milankragujevic 7y ago
Was just going to say that.

ubercow13 7y ago

They are not good at updates, though.

grawprog 7y ago

My last two phones have been Motorola phones. I was really happy when I first seen the app drawer and was greeted by almost nothing. It made such a nice change from the obscene amount of crap that came installed on the two Samsungs I had previously. I don't think I actually disabled any of the preinstalled unremovable things on my Motorola and I even use some of them. Which is saying a lot.

farisjarrah 7y ago

I disagree, Google and Motorola branded phones most certainly DO come with bloatware. The Google app is not necessary for the phone's functionality(this is, if you don't use google assistant) and I can not uninstall it from my Pixel 2. This is true for many Google apps that Google would have you believe is necessary for the functionality of the phone. These are all the google apps that came preinstalled on my phone that I can't uninstall normally that are absolutely non-essential to have on a phone: Google Chrome( I use firefox) Google Drive (Fastmail) Google App (I can use Firefox as a search provider on android) Google Play Movies and TV Google Play Music Google Play Services for AR Google VR Services Playground Youtube (Frankly, with the amount of advertisements on Youtube these days, Firefox on android with ublock origin installed is a few better user experience then the actual YouTube app for android) These are just the apps that I personally have disabled, I am a fastmail user, so Gmail is getting disabled soon as well as Google Calendar. Even Google's "stock" Android on the Pixel phones has plently of blaotware. LineageOS has much less bloatware.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
You can disable them, which is the same thing as far as the user is concerned. Uninstalling from a read-only partition doesn't make sense.
- jackewiehose 7y ago
  Then installing/deploying these apps on a read-only partition doesn't make much sense in the first place.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    Why? As far as the user is concerned, the end result is the same. The app doesn't appear in the app drawer, and none of its entry points are exposed to the OS. The user who just bought a phone gets a fully functional phone right out of the box instead of having to wait for downloads. A factory reset to get back to the initial state is as simple as wiping all writable partitions.

Barrin92 7y ago

>Motorola (edit: and Google, Nokia, probably other) phones come without bloatware - vote with your wallets. Yes, vote with your wallet, but also vote with your actual votes. I'd very much like to see a decision from the EU or FCC to finally stop this practice of making it impossible for people to remove the software from the phones they own. Consumer rights when it comes to mobile devices which are arguably already the primary platform for end users need to be extended. The extent to which businesses are able to lock down devices is just a disaster.

el_nino 7y ago
This might be a bit of a rabbit hole. My OnePlus has a relatively clean Android but comes with a few apps like Calculator, Notes, or Chrome that don't seem to be removable. They're also not core functionality. So I wonder how easy is it to draw the line between these and the crap that many phones come with. Also stuff like Play services or the Google Store are somewhat replaceable. How could these be categorized?
- tjoff 7y ago
  So what if someone wants to remove a non-core functionality calculator? Let them.
lobotryas 7y ago
I wouldn’t. Why is the knee-jerk reaction to solve problems (especially trivial ones like this) with more red tape and bureaucracy? Remember that HN is a bubble. We might care about bloatware, but maybe millions of regular users don’t (or even find some of the bloat useful).
- Barrin92 7y ago
  it wouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction given how long this has been an issue, and there is little to no bureaucracy or legislation involved other than telling companies what not to do with their consumer's devices. Giving users the right to delete applications is technically straight forward and involves zero additional bureaucrats. Honestly the only knee-jerk thing about this is describing freedom-enhancing measures in the interest of users with the absolutely meaningless 'red tape' buzzword. And I don't think this is a bubble issue either. People being frustrated with having applications fill up their menus or screens and memory is an everyday issue that everyone complains about.

rascul 7y ago

My Moto G6 came with a bunch of Moto apps, Facebook, a weather app, Google Drive, Gmail, Google Photos, and YouTube. All of which is unnecessary bloat that I can't uninstall, but I was able to disable without losing any functionality.

janpot 7y ago

vote with your vote and stop promoting consumerism as a form of democracy.