4 ms·

> now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries It's probably more because in co

> now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. Since humans recognize each other almost exclusively by face (you may rely on voice or even smell but not in a crowded space) and that's our most relatable feature, it's also the one that will make people feel a bit uneasy. Full face masks are usually associated with crime so it will take a while before people think "oh, they must be privacy conscious". One major sticking point from law enforcement perspective (at least in countries that have some semblance of privacy) wasn't that the face is covered but rather that sometimes those wearing it for religious reasons refused to take it off when requested, like when being stopped for a traffic offense. These issues only caused social unrest and that's something to avoid. In the meantime you can successfully fool pretty much all CV systems with a hat and glasses, and maybe add some carefully crafted patterns just to make sure. None of these are outlawed.

reaperducer 7y ago
It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. It's because burkhas are considered a repressive way of controlling women and making them submissive to, rather than equal to men.
- close04 7y ago
  Right... when statistically speaking 1 in 3 women in the EU experienced various forms of physical violence by a partner or by other persons (with France having some of the highest rates in Europe) [0] I'm sure all men are really appalled at the repressive aspects of the burka. In reality very few people ever consider this aspect of the clothing. The bans mostly prohibit covering the face and do nothing to remove the repressive aspect. All most people see is a fully covered face and that makes them feel uneasy and make Islamophobic associations with religion or terrorism, as highlighted by most surveys [1][2][3][4][5]. None of the surveys suggests an interest in the repressive aspect. In the same survey where over 80% of Germans wanted to have the burka banned, 25% "said the most pressing topic was domestic security and the fight against terrorism, just 12 percent view migrant integration as a priority". People just want to see the face to feel lees uneasy, or simply to remove "foreign, invading" symbols. The laws were put in place to appease said social unrest and a good hint of that is that they are usually proposed and very strongly supported by populist and right-wing parties who surely only look after the well being of women. The conviction you put in your statement is not supported by reality. And I'm not talking about official justification that has to look good in the media but the real situation on the ground. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-at-a-glance-oct14_en.pdf https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-surve... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-19504358 https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-1950... [2] https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-ban-burqa-survey https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-b... [3] https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegians-are-the-most-critical-of-the-niqab-and-burka-in-the-nordics/1459913 https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegi... [4] https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa-ban-survey-h151367.html https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa... [5] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-a-burqa-that-doesnt-exist-the-cowardice-of-dutch-politics-and-the-courage-of-those-who-resist/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-...
- homonculus1 7y ago
  Ironically, since applying the force of law to dictate how these women may dress does not release them from control and repression. Freedom must be cultivated.
KozmoNau7 7y ago
> It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. Enacting new laws and bans simply because some people "feel uncomfortable" is highly irresponsible. In my country, there are AFAIK fewer than 500 people wearing burkas or niqabs, ie. face-covering veils commonly associated with Islam. For burkas alone, the number is estimated to be fewer than 50, in the entire country. Only a subset of those would refuse to remove their veils when asked by a police officer, especially if said police officer is female and some amount of privacy could be established. Making sweeping legislation that affects the entire population, based on populist nationalist politicians drumming up xenophobia and fear of the Other, is profoundly unsound. Especially since people can (and have) already been fined for refusing to comply with orders given by the police. The end result is that those women wearing veils under pressure from their husbands, will be forced to stay at home, by threat of fines. > you can successfully fool pretty much all CV systems with a hat and glasses, and maybe add some carefully crafted patterns just to make sure. None of these are outlawed. Big sunglasses cover your eyes, full-face masks (balaclavas) are worn in winter, people cover their faces with scarves when it's windy and cold/dusty. The legislation in my country is written so any kind of face covering garment is illegal, if a police officer deems that it is being worn to conceal one's identity, and no other "allowable" circumstances exist. In effect, it gives the police free reign to enforce the law as they please, and where they please. E: I don't disagree with your explanation for why it has been done, by populist right-wing politicians. My post does read a little confrontational, that wasn't really my intention, I realize we probably generally agree on this subject.

reaperducer 7y ago

It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. It's because burkhas are considered a repressive way of controlling women and making them submissive to, rather than equal to men.

close04 7y ago
Right... when statistically speaking 1 in 3 women in the EU experienced various forms of physical violence by a partner or by other persons (with France having some of the highest rates in Europe) [0] I'm sure all men are really appalled at the repressive aspects of the burka. In reality very few people ever consider this aspect of the clothing. The bans mostly prohibit covering the face and do nothing to remove the repressive aspect. All most people see is a fully covered face and that makes them feel uneasy and make Islamophobic associations with religion or terrorism, as highlighted by most surveys [1][2][3][4][5]. None of the surveys suggests an interest in the repressive aspect. In the same survey where over 80% of Germans wanted to have the burka banned, 25% "said the most pressing topic was domestic security and the fight against terrorism, just 12 percent view migrant integration as a priority". People just want to see the face to feel lees uneasy, or simply to remove "foreign, invading" symbols. The laws were put in place to appease said social unrest and a good hint of that is that they are usually proposed and very strongly supported by populist and right-wing parties who surely only look after the well being of women. The conviction you put in your statement is not supported by reality. And I'm not talking about official justification that has to look good in the media but the real situation on the ground. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-at-a-glance-oct14_en.pdf https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-surve... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-19504358 https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-1950... [2] https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-ban-burqa-survey https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-b... [3] https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegians-are-the-most-critical-of-the-niqab-and-burka-in-the-nordics/1459913 https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegi... [4] https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa-ban-survey-h151367.html https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa... [5] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-a-burqa-that-doesnt-exist-the-cowardice-of-dutch-politics-and-the-courage-of-those-who-resist/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-...
homonculus1 7y ago
Ironically, since applying the force of law to dictate how these women may dress does not release them from control and repression. Freedom must be cultivated.

KozmoNau7 7y ago

> It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. Enacting new laws and bans simply because some people "feel uncomfortable" is highly irresponsible. In my country, there are AFAIK fewer than 500 people wearing burkas or niqabs, ie. face-covering veils commonly associated with Islam. For burkas alone, the number is estimated to be fewer than 50, in the entire country. Only a subset of those would refuse to remove their veils when asked by a police officer, especially if said police officer is female and some amount of privacy could be established. Making sweeping legislation that affects the entire population, based on populist nationalist politicians drumming up xenophobia and fear of the Other, is profoundly unsound. Especially since people can (and have) already been fined for refusing to comply with orders given by the police. The end result is that those women wearing veils under pressure from their husbands, will be forced to stay at home, by threat of fines. > you can successfully fool pretty much all CV systems with a hat and glasses, and maybe add some carefully crafted patterns just to make sure. None of these are outlawed. Big sunglasses cover your eyes, full-face masks (balaclavas) are worn in winter, people cover their faces with scarves when it's windy and cold/dusty. The legislation in my country is written so any kind of face covering garment is illegal, if a police officer deems that it is being worn to conceal one's identity, and no other "allowable" circumstances exist. In effect, it gives the police free reign to enforce the law as they please, and where they please. E: I don't disagree with your explanation for why it has been done, by populist right-wing politicians. My post does read a little confrontational, that wasn't really my intention, I realize we probably generally agree on this subject.