5 ms·

A lot of these CV hacks work only on existing tech. If I a human can still recognize a face then it is almost certain that a better CV tool can. The bulletproof

A lot of these CV hacks work only on existing tech. If I a human can still recognize a face then it is almost certain that a better CV tool can. The bulletproof method is to wear clothing that entirely covers your face religious style clothing comes to mind. Total face covering may not be totally socially acceptable in your area but it almost certainly is more acceptable than dazzle makeup. A fairly casual setup that looks pretty acceptable is to be riding/walking with a bike, helmet on, sunglasses on and a bandana covering the face (This is normal to stop bugs).

0xBA5ED 7y ago
>A lot of these CV hacks work only on existing tech This is true for every countermeasure for every tech. Total covering of the face may be temporarily effective as well. Who knows, maybe it will become impossible to find a bike helmet that isn't connected to the internet with sensors inside it.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  Tech already exists to track people by gait, and experimentally by tracking your heartbeat via infrared laser, or so it's claimed.
  - 0xBA5ED 7y ago
    Oh yeah, was thinking about gait. I don't doubt this at all. The heartbeat thing, I hadn't heard of though. Thanks.
KozmoNau7 7y ago
And now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries, including France and Denmark. It was already illegal during protests (smile for the police bodycams!), now it's illegal at all times, unless you can claim a reason the police finds acceptable. When you can track dissidents everywhere they go in the physical world, preemptively shutting down protests becomes so much easier. At least online we have encryption. We don't really have an equivalent in the real world.
- close04 7y ago
  > now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. Since humans recognize each other almost exclusively by face (you may rely on voice or even smell but not in a crowded space) and that's our most relatable feature, it's also the one that will make people feel a bit uneasy. Full face masks are usually associated with crime so it will take a while before people think "oh, they must be privacy conscious". One major sticking point from law enforcement perspective (at least in countries that have some semblance of privacy) wasn't that the face is covered but rather that sometimes those wearing it for religious reasons refused to take it off when requested, like when being stopped for a traffic offense. These issues only caused social unrest and that's something to avoid. In the meantime you can successfully fool pretty much all CV systems with a hat and glasses, and maybe add some carefully crafted patterns just to make sure. None of these are outlawed.
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. It's because burkhas are considered a repressive way of controlling women and making them submissive to, rather than equal to men.
    - close04 7y ago
      Right... when statistically speaking 1 in 3 women in the EU experienced various forms of physical violence by a partner or by other persons (with France having some of the highest rates in Europe) [0] I'm sure all men are really appalled at the repressive aspects of the burka. In reality very few people ever consider this aspect of the clothing. The bans mostly prohibit covering the face and do nothing to remove the repressive aspect. All most people see is a fully covered face and that makes them feel uneasy and make Islamophobic associations with religion or terrorism, as highlighted by most surveys [1][2][3][4][5]. None of the surveys suggests an interest in the repressive aspect. In the same survey where over 80% of Germans wanted to have the burka banned, 25% "said the most pressing topic was domestic security and the fight against terrorism, just 12 percent view migrant integration as a priority". People just want to see the face to feel lees uneasy, or simply to remove "foreign, invading" symbols. The laws were put in place to appease said social unrest and a good hint of that is that they are usually proposed and very strongly supported by populist and right-wing parties who surely only look after the well being of women. The conviction you put in your statement is not supported by reality. And I'm not talking about official justification that has to look good in the media but the real situation on the ground. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-at-a-glance-oct14_en.pdf https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-surve... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-19504358 https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-1950... [2] https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-ban-burqa-survey https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-b... [3] https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegians-are-the-most-critical-of-the-niqab-and-burka-in-the-nordics/1459913 https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegi... [4] https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa-ban-survey-h151367.html https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa... [5] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-a-burqa-that-doesnt-exist-the-cowardice-of-dutch-politics-and-the-courage-of-those-who-resist/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-...
KineticLensman 7y ago
> The bulletproof method is to wear clothing that entirely covers your face religious style There are no methods that will remain bulletproof, for determined adversaries / state actors. Biometric gait analysis can potentially defeat facial camouflage, and the technology will continue to improve, especially as it becomes more widespread in non-surveillance applications, e.g. athletics and fitness See discussion in other comments here
- keiferski 7y ago
  Probably a bit much to deal with everyday, but - what about a line of shoes that have varying heights, angles and weights? Or even a single pair of high-tech shoes that automatically randomize these elements every 24 hours.
  - close04 7y ago
    I imagine these would wreak havoc on your joints though.
  - melcor 7y ago
    You're probably better off just throwing a pebble or two at random spots in your shoe. Random height/angles are most likely going to fuck with your joints and just make it too hard to move efficiently, while a pebble or two will be annoying but tolerable and should be enough to change your gait up.
  - gknoy 7y ago
    I remember in the Bourne Identity (book), the main character puts a rock in his shoe, which forced him to change his gait to not be noticed by surveillance. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that were effective in real life.
- rckoepke 7y ago
  Covering your face/gait/etc also doesn't matter if someone can autonomously track the "faceless blob" from your house, to everywhere you go, and back to your house again. We're getting pretty close to that in some countries. Even in the USA where camera density isn't particularly high - there are so many cities where you cannot get around without using a car. After California eliminated the Steve Jobs license plate law, there's no place where using a car isn't fairly well tracked. With ALPR, Uber/Taxi records...I don't personally see how you can get around a city like Houston or Phoenix without either: 1) Being tracked from your house 2) Breaking the law (covering license plate, stealing car, etc) Unless I've grossly overestimated the prevalence of ALPR's. I'm assuming there's quite a lot of undocumented ones.
esotericn 7y ago
The bike approach would only work if you have a standardised setup. In the UK I recall at least one motorcyclist that has been tracked down after setting off cameras at silly speeds with a blocked license plate via helmet + bike + location.

0xBA5ED 7y ago

>A lot of these CV hacks work only on existing tech This is true for every countermeasure for every tech. Total covering of the face may be temporarily effective as well. Who knows, maybe it will become impossible to find a bike helmet that isn't connected to the internet with sensors inside it.

KozmoNau7 7y ago
Tech already exists to track people by gait, and experimentally by tracking your heartbeat via infrared laser, or so it's claimed.
- 0xBA5ED 7y ago
  Oh yeah, was thinking about gait. I don't doubt this at all. The heartbeat thing, I hadn't heard of though. Thanks.

KozmoNau7 7y ago

And now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries, including France and Denmark. It was already illegal during protests (smile for the police bodycams!), now it's illegal at all times, unless you can claim a reason the police finds acceptable. When you can track dissidents everywhere they go in the physical world, preemptively shutting down protests becomes so much easier. At least online we have encryption. We don't really have an equivalent in the real world.

close04 7y ago
> now you know why "burka bans" and other similar bans on face covering garments have been put into law in a lot of countries It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. Since humans recognize each other almost exclusively by face (you may rely on voice or even smell but not in a crowded space) and that's our most relatable feature, it's also the one that will make people feel a bit uneasy. Full face masks are usually associated with crime so it will take a while before people think "oh, they must be privacy conscious". One major sticking point from law enforcement perspective (at least in countries that have some semblance of privacy) wasn't that the face is covered but rather that sometimes those wearing it for religious reasons refused to take it off when requested, like when being stopped for a traffic offense. These issues only caused social unrest and that's something to avoid. In the meantime you can successfully fool pretty much all CV systems with a hat and glasses, and maybe add some carefully crafted patterns just to make sure. None of these are outlawed.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  It's probably more because in countries where people are used to having an exposed face they feel uncomfortable seeing someone fully covered at all times. It's because burkhas are considered a repressive way of controlling women and making them submissive to, rather than equal to men.
  - close04 7y ago
    Right... when statistically speaking 1 in 3 women in the EU experienced various forms of physical violence by a partner or by other persons (with France having some of the highest rates in Europe) [0] I'm sure all men are really appalled at the repressive aspects of the burka. In reality very few people ever consider this aspect of the clothing. The bans mostly prohibit covering the face and do nothing to remove the repressive aspect. All most people see is a fully covered face and that makes them feel uneasy and make Islamophobic associations with religion or terrorism, as highlighted by most surveys [1][2][3][4][5]. None of the surveys suggests an interest in the repressive aspect. In the same survey where over 80% of Germans wanted to have the burka banned, 25% "said the most pressing topic was domestic security and the fight against terrorism, just 12 percent view migrant integration as a priority". People just want to see the face to feel lees uneasy, or simply to remove "foreign, invading" symbols. The laws were put in place to appease said social unrest and a good hint of that is that they are usually proposed and very strongly supported by populist and right-wing parties who surely only look after the well being of women. The conviction you put in your statement is not supported by reality. And I'm not talking about official justification that has to look good in the media but the real situation on the ground. [0] https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-at-a-glance-oct14_en.pdf https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-surve... [1] https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-19504358 https://www.dw.com/en/survey-germans-want-a-burqa-ban/a-1950... [2] https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-ban-burqa-survey https://www.thelocal.dk/20170929/majority-of-danes-want-to-b... [3] https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegians-are-the-most-critical-of-the-niqab-and-burka-in-the-nordics/1459913 https://sciencenorway.no/clothing-forskningno-norway/norwegi... [4] https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa-ban-survey-h151367.html https://www.worldbulletin.net/europe/swiss-in-favor-of-burqa... [5] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-a-burqa-that-doesnt-exist-the-cowardice-of-dutch-politics-and-the-courage-of-those-who-resist/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/can-europe-make-it/banning-...

KineticLensman 7y ago

> The bulletproof method is to wear clothing that entirely covers your face religious style There are no methods that will remain bulletproof, for determined adversaries / state actors. Biometric gait analysis can potentially defeat facial camouflage, and the technology will continue to improve, especially as it becomes more widespread in non-surveillance applications, e.g. athletics and fitness See discussion in other comments here

keiferski 7y ago
Probably a bit much to deal with everyday, but - what about a line of shoes that have varying heights, angles and weights? Or even a single pair of high-tech shoes that automatically randomize these elements every 24 hours.
- close04 7y ago
  I imagine these would wreak havoc on your joints though.
- melcor 7y ago
  You're probably better off just throwing a pebble or two at random spots in your shoe. Random height/angles are most likely going to fuck with your joints and just make it too hard to move efficiently, while a pebble or two will be annoying but tolerable and should be enough to change your gait up.
- gknoy 7y ago
  I remember in the Bourne Identity (book), the main character puts a rock in his shoe, which forced him to change his gait to not be noticed by surveillance. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that were effective in real life.
rckoepke 7y ago
Covering your face/gait/etc also doesn't matter if someone can autonomously track the "faceless blob" from your house, to everywhere you go, and back to your house again. We're getting pretty close to that in some countries. Even in the USA where camera density isn't particularly high - there are so many cities where you cannot get around without using a car. After California eliminated the Steve Jobs license plate law, there's no place where using a car isn't fairly well tracked. With ALPR, Uber/Taxi records...I don't personally see how you can get around a city like Houston or Phoenix without either: 1) Being tracked from your house 2) Breaking the law (covering license plate, stealing car, etc) Unless I've grossly overestimated the prevalence of ALPR's. I'm assuming there's quite a lot of undocumented ones.

esotericn 7y ago

The bike approach would only work if you have a standardised setup. In the UK I recall at least one motorcyclist that has been tracked down after setting off cameras at silly speeds with a blocked license plate via helmet + bike + location.