4 ms·

This is a fairly regular occurrence in parts of Europe. Once, I was supposed to take a train from Munich back home to Padova. It's a fairly long train ride, bu

by davidw 7y ago

This is a fairly regular occurrence in parts of Europe. Once, I was supposed to take a train from Munich back home to Padova. It's a fairly long train ride, but quite pleasant, as it's very scenic, and of course on trains you're free to move around, buy food, read, use electronics, and so on. It turned into an epic odyssey because they rerouted the thing through... Villach and Tarvisio in for northeastern Italy, due to a bomb near the tracks somewhere in northern Italy. That was a bit too far.

hinkley 7y ago
Years ago, maybe twenty or more, I heard that due to faulty triggers, almost half of the ordinance dropped on France in WWII is unaccounted for, as in “could still be a couple feet underground in your yard/field”. Farmers were still discovering them relatively often. I wonder if that fraction has moved much. Wikipedia in the subject of the Ardennes, Verdun, and Unexploded Ordinance (UXOs): > In the Ardennes region of France, large-scale citizen evacuations were necessary during MEC removal operations in 2001. In the forests of Verdun French government "démineurs" working for the Département du Déminage still hunt for poisonous, volatile, and/or explosive munitions and recover about 900 tons every year. The most feared are corroded artillery shells containing chemical warfare agents such as mustard gas. French and Flemish farmers still find many UXOs when ploughing their fields, the so-called "iron harvest". I know these are often big bombs but 900 tonnes a year‽
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  "Iron harvest" is such an adequate and awesome naming for something so dangerous.
  - Taniwha 7y ago
    Often it's what people plow up ... so it's somewhat descriptive. I believe most of the stuff dug up that's called "Iron Harvest" in Northern France is WW1 artillery rather than WW2 bombs
    - davidw 7y ago
      People were still getting blown up by WWI era stuff in Italy 10 years ago: https://strafexpedition1916.altervista.org/i-recuperanti-.html https://strafexpedition1916.altervista.org/i-recuperanti-.ht...
- gsnedders 7y ago
  > I know these are often big bombs but 900 tonnes a year‽ Remember the Allies alone dropped _millions_ of tons of bombs, yet alone the tens (hundreds?) of millions of tons of shells fired across battlefields, and we've not even started counting grenades and other similar smaller ordinance. 900 tons is _nothing_ compared with the sheer amount fired in the European theatre, especially across both World Wars. Also remember many of the prolonged battles were essentially fields of potted mud: along with period fuses, many of the shells simply landed in soft mud to slowly sink in. I think it's definitely the case that many of those less involved in the European theatre (v. the near universal conscription of men in Europe) don't realise how intensive much of the fighting here was. These are wars that went on for years, often with the front lines scarcely moving for months, with continuous bombardment for the entire time.
  - userbinator 7y ago
    There's another comment here that a big one found was several thousand pounds, so the 900t doesn't seem like all that much.
  - sk5t 7y ago
    Almost one thousand tons per year still seems like a pretty large number considering the war ended some 75 years ago. How long is the long tail of demining?
    - brnt 7y ago
      That war is now over a century ago. Belgium still has an impressive infrastructure and skilled personnel to deal with this. Now you understand why mines are outlawed almost everywhere. Cleanup will never be done. Its just started in Bosnia for instance, with decades of work ahead of us.
      - gsnedders 7y ago
        This. If we assume we're talking about the order of 10,000,000 tons, of which 10% didn't detonate (this is roughly accurate for bombs & shells, mines are much harder to quantify), then that left 1,000,000 tons of UXO. If we assume (somehow!) half of that was dealt with quickly, that leaves 500,000 tons of UXO. If we assume 1000 tons are found per year, that's still 500 years to tidy up. Across both wars the total may well be closer to 100M than 10M, so then that makes it 5000 years.
- Stevvo 7y ago
  As a kid in the 90s, we would holiday along the coast of Brittany and Normandy. Every year we would find bombs while building sand castles or searching for crabs in rock pools. Never thought anything of it.
- brmgb 7y ago
  > In the Ardennes region of France, large-scale citizen evacuations were necessary during MEC removal operations in 2001. In the forests of Verdun French government "démineurs" working for the Département du Déminage still hunt for poisonous, volatile, and/or explosive munitions and recover about 900 tons every year. The most feared are corroded artillery shells containing chemical warfare agents such as mustard gas. French and Flemish farmers still find many UXOs when ploughing their fields, the so-called "iron harvest". These are WWI ordnances. Ardennes and especially Verdun was the theather of one of the largest battle of the western front. That's trench warefare at it's worth. The whole region was chock-full of shells.
deepersprout 7y ago
I think the train re-routing you talk about took place because of this bomb in Bolzano: https://www.dw.com/en/italy-thousands-evacuated-for-world-war-ii-bomb-disposal/a-50907087 https://www.dw.com/en/italy-thousands-evacuated-for-world-wa...
- davidw 7y ago
  That's along the route, but it was quite a few years ago, so probably not that specific one.

by davidw 7y ago

hinkley 7y ago

Years ago, maybe twenty or more, I heard that due to faulty triggers, almost half of the ordinance dropped on France in WWII is unaccounted for, as in “could still be a couple feet underground in your yard/field”. Farmers were still discovering them relatively often. I wonder if that fraction has moved much. Wikipedia in the subject of the Ardennes, Verdun, and Unexploded Ordinance (UXOs): > In the Ardennes region of France, large-scale citizen evacuations were necessary during MEC removal operations in 2001. In the forests of Verdun French government "démineurs" working for the Département du Déminage still hunt for poisonous, volatile, and/or explosive munitions and recover about 900 tons every year. The most feared are corroded artillery shells containing chemical warfare agents such as mustard gas. French and Flemish farmers still find many UXOs when ploughing their fields, the so-called "iron harvest". I know these are often big bombs but 900 tonnes a year‽

ASalazarMX 7y ago
"Iron harvest" is such an adequate and awesome naming for something so dangerous.
- Taniwha 7y ago
  Often it's what people plow up ... so it's somewhat descriptive. I believe most of the stuff dug up that's called "Iron Harvest" in Northern France is WW1 artillery rather than WW2 bombs
  - davidw 7y ago
    People were still getting blown up by WWI era stuff in Italy 10 years ago: https://strafexpedition1916.altervista.org/i-recuperanti-.html https://strafexpedition1916.altervista.org/i-recuperanti-.ht...
gsnedders 7y ago
> I know these are often big bombs but 900 tonnes a year‽ Remember the Allies alone dropped _millions_ of tons of bombs, yet alone the tens (hundreds?) of millions of tons of shells fired across battlefields, and we've not even started counting grenades and other similar smaller ordinance. 900 tons is _nothing_ compared with the sheer amount fired in the European theatre, especially across both World Wars. Also remember many of the prolonged battles were essentially fields of potted mud: along with period fuses, many of the shells simply landed in soft mud to slowly sink in. I think it's definitely the case that many of those less involved in the European theatre (v. the near universal conscription of men in Europe) don't realise how intensive much of the fighting here was. These are wars that went on for years, often with the front lines scarcely moving for months, with continuous bombardment for the entire time.
- userbinator 7y ago
  There's another comment here that a big one found was several thousand pounds, so the 900t doesn't seem like all that much.
- sk5t 7y ago
  Almost one thousand tons per year still seems like a pretty large number considering the war ended some 75 years ago. How long is the long tail of demining?
  - brnt 7y ago
    That war is now over a century ago. Belgium still has an impressive infrastructure and skilled personnel to deal with this. Now you understand why mines are outlawed almost everywhere. Cleanup will never be done. Its just started in Bosnia for instance, with decades of work ahead of us.
    - gsnedders 7y ago
      This. If we assume we're talking about the order of 10,000,000 tons, of which 10% didn't detonate (this is roughly accurate for bombs & shells, mines are much harder to quantify), then that left 1,000,000 tons of UXO. If we assume (somehow!) half of that was dealt with quickly, that leaves 500,000 tons of UXO. If we assume 1000 tons are found per year, that's still 500 years to tidy up. Across both wars the total may well be closer to 100M than 10M, so then that makes it 5000 years.
Stevvo 7y ago
As a kid in the 90s, we would holiday along the coast of Brittany and Normandy. Every year we would find bombs while building sand castles or searching for crabs in rock pools. Never thought anything of it.
brmgb 7y ago
> In the Ardennes region of France, large-scale citizen evacuations were necessary during MEC removal operations in 2001. In the forests of Verdun French government "démineurs" working for the Département du Déminage still hunt for poisonous, volatile, and/or explosive munitions and recover about 900 tons every year. The most feared are corroded artillery shells containing chemical warfare agents such as mustard gas. French and Flemish farmers still find many UXOs when ploughing their fields, the so-called "iron harvest". These are WWI ordnances. Ardennes and especially Verdun was the theather of one of the largest battle of the western front. That's trench warefare at it's worth. The whole region was chock-full of shells.

deepersprout 7y ago

I think the train re-routing you talk about took place because of this bomb in Bolzano: https://www.dw.com/en/italy-thousands-evacuated-for-world-war-ii-bomb-disposal/a-50907087 https://www.dw.com/en/italy-thousands-evacuated-for-world-wa...

davidw 7y ago
That's along the route, but it was quite a few years ago, so probably not that specific one.