3 ms·

One of the biggest problems I have with the "student loan" problem is there was/is no accountablity for how the money was actually spent. More than a few peopl

by syshum 7y ago

One of the biggest problems I have with the "student loan" problem is there was/is no accountablity for how the money was actually spent. More than a few people have taken out student loans, then used that money not for tuition or even books, but for anything from housing to vacations to car payments, to paying of higher interest credit card debt Privately Held Student loan debt should ABSOLUTELY be discharged under bankruptcy. However I refuse to agree that tax payers should be on the hook for it.

gravypod 7y ago
Are housing and transportation not valid applications of a student loan? I am currently close to graduating from college. During my last 3 years I haven't had a stable enough family life to consider living with my parents. I'm very fortunate in that I've spent a large amount of time, throughout my childhood, developing a skill set that is highly valued and I also had the energy required to work full time as a SWE while doing my degree. Had any of those cases not been true I'd have to either give up on getting a degree and live with the sunk costs or I would have had to take out larger loans to cover housing. It feels like if I was someone with a chronic medical condition that made it impossible for me to work 75hr to 90hr I would have effectively been barred from getting a degree.
- syshum 7y ago
  >>Are housing and transportation not valid applications of a student loan? IMO, no >> I would have effectively been barred from getting a degree. One thing we need to get away from as a society is this belief that everyone should get and/or is entitled to a degree. I am very much in Mike Rowe's camp on this issue, the idea that the default position is every child should spent until the age of 24 in schooling costing in general about $500,000 to "educate" a single child is a complete waste of resources. We need to refocus the work force and have more opportunities for people that do not have a degree. The vast majority of jobs in society should not (and do not in reality) need a degree. Sure Doctors, Engineers, etc may still need that level, but one should not need a 100K+ Computer Science degree to write LOB apps in python, or to be a mid level manager in some office.
dahart 7y ago
I’m skeptical that using student loans for things other than school and related expenses makes up a non-trivial percentage of student loans, do you have any data on that? That said, housing, car payments, and paying down credit are all normal things that happen while you’re in school. Vacations is the only thing on your list that might be legitimate abuse of student loans. Though, it’s a loan with interest, so there’s no clear reason why there should be any restrictions on how someone spends it. Bigger picture, these seem like good reasons to do away with student loans and subsidize higher education 100%. Other countries are doing it, and it could easily be paid for via very slightly higher incomes taxes only on people with degrees, who currently enjoy an average 2x higher salary than people without.
- syshum 7y ago
  >>do you have any data on that? No one does as it is not tracked or gathered. The loans are made and no one gives a shit how it spent All I have is anecdotal evidence of people that I personally know that spent money in this way >That said, housing, car payments, and paying down credit are all normal things that happen while you’re in school. This is true however I do not believe they should be paid for with Educational Loans, Education loans should only cover the cost of the actual education. > Though, it’s a loan with interest, so there’s no clear reason why there should be any restrictions on how someone spends it. If they were private loans not backed by the government I would agree and no longer care. > these seem like good reasons to do away with student loans and subsidize higher education 100%. No, just no. I pay enough taxes thank you. > Other countries are doing it Good, if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do that was well That has never been a good reason to do anything. I would rather reform K-12 Education to make it where most jobs can be preformed with that level of education, this idea that ever person needs a degree is moronic to me. Our basic education should be enough for 80% of the population to enter the workforce and be successful, Higher Education should be limited not normalized
  - dahart 7y ago
    > I do not believe [housing and transportation] should be paid for with Educational Loans. The problem with your suggestion to limit student loans to tuition is that the cost of college isn't limited to tuition. If you can't afford the total cost of college, then you can't afford to go. But getting a tuition loan would encourage people who can't afford the secondary costs to try anyway. If the loans were to be limited to tuition only, then you are increasing the risk of loan default. So if you're actually worried about the taxes associated with student loan defaults, you might want to think twice about your position. The loan agencies obviously disagree with your personal opinion, because they don't limit student loans to tuition payments, and they have in fact considered your suggestion. Why do you think you know better than they do? > this idea that ever[y] person needs a degree is moronic to me Good for you, I guess? Who said that here? The reason everyone wants a degree is because it comes with a 2x higher average salary in the US (the fed published this just the other day.) It’s 3x for advanced degrees. You go convince everyone to be happy with less than what you have. > Good, if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do that as well Maybe yes if everyone who jumped off a bridge landed safely 3 feet below in a pile of money and a better life for everyone. Your tired and hyperbolic aphorism doesn’t work as an analogy at all. The countries subsidizing education are not only failing to die from it, those countries are better off than we are by many measures, including global education ranking and strong economies. Yes, thank you, I’d love some of that. > If they were private loans not back by the government I would agree and no longer care. The government is making money on student loans. What, exactly, is the actual issue you have that is real today and not imagined or hypothetical fear? > I pay enough taxes thank you. I see this is dogmatic debate over tax ‘principles’ and not serious thought about the actual value of the money we spend, or how to improve the situation. What you’re suggesting is status quo- that all taxpayers should stay accountable to student loan defaults, whether they go to college or not. What I suggested is that the people who get degrees (and have higher salaries as a result) would be the people paying for students. Are you absolutely certain your plan is actually better for taxpayers? I'm a tax payer, and I personally think I'd probably be better off economically if I could have paid a tiny bit higher income tax instead of taking student loans. The total education expenditure in what I suggested doesn’t change. You pay a smaller amount every year after you earn your degree, instead of a large amount before you even have an income. (It's not entirely unlike a student loan if you think about it.) Were it to actually happen, the government could push to standardize education costs, reduce the uncontrolled tuition hiking and reduce college administrations. Absolute fear of taxes, sadly, is preventing us from being able to imagine scenarios that are better than what we have. We’re limiting ourselves by assuming that we can’t share.

by syshum 7y ago

gravypod 7y ago

Are housing and transportation not valid applications of a student loan? I am currently close to graduating from college. During my last 3 years I haven't had a stable enough family life to consider living with my parents. I'm very fortunate in that I've spent a large amount of time, throughout my childhood, developing a skill set that is highly valued and I also had the energy required to work full time as a SWE while doing my degree. Had any of those cases not been true I'd have to either give up on getting a degree and live with the sunk costs or I would have had to take out larger loans to cover housing. It feels like if I was someone with a chronic medical condition that made it impossible for me to work 75hr to 90hr I would have effectively been barred from getting a degree.

syshum 7y ago
>>Are housing and transportation not valid applications of a student loan? IMO, no >> I would have effectively been barred from getting a degree. One thing we need to get away from as a society is this belief that everyone should get and/or is entitled to a degree. I am very much in Mike Rowe's camp on this issue, the idea that the default position is every child should spent until the age of 24 in schooling costing in general about $500,000 to "educate" a single child is a complete waste of resources. We need to refocus the work force and have more opportunities for people that do not have a degree. The vast majority of jobs in society should not (and do not in reality) need a degree. Sure Doctors, Engineers, etc may still need that level, but one should not need a 100K+ Computer Science degree to write LOB apps in python, or to be a mid level manager in some office.

dahart 7y ago

I’m skeptical that using student loans for things other than school and related expenses makes up a non-trivial percentage of student loans, do you have any data on that? That said, housing, car payments, and paying down credit are all normal things that happen while you’re in school. Vacations is the only thing on your list that might be legitimate abuse of student loans. Though, it’s a loan with interest, so there’s no clear reason why there should be any restrictions on how someone spends it. Bigger picture, these seem like good reasons to do away with student loans and subsidize higher education 100%. Other countries are doing it, and it could easily be paid for via very slightly higher incomes taxes only on people with degrees, who currently enjoy an average 2x higher salary than people without.

syshum 7y ago
>>do you have any data on that? No one does as it is not tracked or gathered. The loans are made and no one gives a shit how it spent All I have is anecdotal evidence of people that I personally know that spent money in this way >That said, housing, car payments, and paying down credit are all normal things that happen while you’re in school. This is true however I do not believe they should be paid for with Educational Loans, Education loans should only cover the cost of the actual education. > Though, it’s a loan with interest, so there’s no clear reason why there should be any restrictions on how someone spends it. If they were private loans not backed by the government I would agree and no longer care. > these seem like good reasons to do away with student loans and subsidize higher education 100%. No, just no. I pay enough taxes thank you. > Other countries are doing it Good, if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do that was well That has never been a good reason to do anything. I would rather reform K-12 Education to make it where most jobs can be preformed with that level of education, this idea that ever person needs a degree is moronic to me. Our basic education should be enough for 80% of the population to enter the workforce and be successful, Higher Education should be limited not normalized
- dahart 7y ago
  > I do not believe [housing and transportation] should be paid for with Educational Loans. The problem with your suggestion to limit student loans to tuition is that the cost of college isn't limited to tuition. If you can't afford the total cost of college, then you can't afford to go. But getting a tuition loan would encourage people who can't afford the secondary costs to try anyway. If the loans were to be limited to tuition only, then you are increasing the risk of loan default. So if you're actually worried about the taxes associated with student loan defaults, you might want to think twice about your position. The loan agencies obviously disagree with your personal opinion, because they don't limit student loans to tuition payments, and they have in fact considered your suggestion. Why do you think you know better than they do? > this idea that ever[y] person needs a degree is moronic to me Good for you, I guess? Who said that here? The reason everyone wants a degree is because it comes with a 2x higher average salary in the US (the fed published this just the other day.) It’s 3x for advanced degrees. You go convince everyone to be happy with less than what you have. > Good, if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you do that as well Maybe yes if everyone who jumped off a bridge landed safely 3 feet below in a pile of money and a better life for everyone. Your tired and hyperbolic aphorism doesn’t work as an analogy at all. The countries subsidizing education are not only failing to die from it, those countries are better off than we are by many measures, including global education ranking and strong economies. Yes, thank you, I’d love some of that. > If they were private loans not back by the government I would agree and no longer care. The government is making money on student loans. What, exactly, is the actual issue you have that is real today and not imagined or hypothetical fear? > I pay enough taxes thank you. I see this is dogmatic debate over tax ‘principles’ and not serious thought about the actual value of the money we spend, or how to improve the situation. What you’re suggesting is status quo- that all taxpayers should stay accountable to student loan defaults, whether they go to college or not. What I suggested is that the people who get degrees (and have higher salaries as a result) would be the people paying for students. Are you absolutely certain your plan is actually better for taxpayers? I'm a tax payer, and I personally think I'd probably be better off economically if I could have paid a tiny bit higher income tax instead of taking student loans. The total education expenditure in what I suggested doesn’t change. You pay a smaller amount every year after you earn your degree, instead of a large amount before you even have an income. (It's not entirely unlike a student loan if you think about it.) Were it to actually happen, the government could push to standardize education costs, reduce the uncontrolled tuition hiking and reduce college administrations. Absolute fear of taxes, sadly, is preventing us from being able to imagine scenarios that are better than what we have. We’re limiting ourselves by assuming that we can’t share.