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> my exchange with the young woman, during which we debated whether group identity is more important than judging people as individuals And I'm sure that in th

> my exchange with the young woman, during which we debated whether group identity is more important than judging people as individuals And I'm sure that in that debate, the author of an article titled "Why Women Don't Code" was outspoken in his defense of judging people as individuals rather than by some group identity…

oh_sigh 7y ago
Saying "women code less than men" does not have an implied "therefore you can just ignore any individual woman that codes" after it. Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"?
- microtherion 7y ago
  > Saying "women code less than men" does not have an implied "therefore you can just ignore any individual woman that codes" after it. When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". If somebody had said 40 years ago that "men play more soccer than women", this would have been correct as an empirical statement. However, it was also invariably taken as a normative statement, and subsequently less resources and encouragement were expended on women. And when the genders were later put on more equitable footing, the empirical fact turned out to be quite malleable. > Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"? As an individualist, one should always examine whether one extends the benefits of individualism to everyone, or whether one sees just one's own peers as individuals, while judging others as groups.
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    Yeah, this is just one example of the kind of violence and intimidation women face when entering male-dominated fields. Which is exactly why many women choose other fields.
    - darawk 7y ago
      Let's calm with the use of the word 'violence' here. Violence has an actual meaning, and it is not this, whether you agree with this guy or not.
  - googlryas 7y ago
    This doesn't really follow. The original post seems to be about how the author is a hypocrite - now it is simply about him not having the right sensitivity levels for his statements.
    - microtherion 7y ago
      I was not so much trying to point out hypocrisy, as an apparent lack of self awareness. The author does not realize that he resorts to "group identities" as well, nor does he consider what kind of effect his statements as a teacher can have on his students. As another example of doubtful self awareness, the author mentions the enthusiastic reception of his "heterodox thinking" seminar — has he considered that receiving a perfect evaluation score (5 of 5) is NOT exactly evidence that the seminar has succeeded in instilling heterodox thinking in his students? And, given said lack of self awareness, I would not surprised if the author's attitudes about gender had more of an influence on his treatment of students than he realizes.
  - darawk 7y ago
    > When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". > If somebody had said 40 years ago that "men play more soccer than women", this would have been correct as an empirical statement. However, it was also invariably taken as a normative statement, and subsequently less resources and encouragement were expended on women. And when the genders were later put on more equitable footing, the empirical fact turned out to be quite malleable. It is not "invariably taken" as a normative statement, especially not when its normative interpretation is literally and explicitly disclaimed by the author.
  - manfredo 7y ago
    > When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". What part of Reges' writing left you with this impression? He wrote the exact opposite: > As a result, I am absolutely convinced that for many years there have been—and even today still are—many women who have not yet discovered the bright future they can have in the field of computer science. Half of the women in our undergraduate major are ‘interest changers,’ which means they weren’t intending to apply to the major when they started our first course. For men the figure is closer to 20 percent, so there is a big gender gap. In short, I have always been and continue to be a strong advocate of many aspects of the diversity agenda.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  >Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"? no but there's a really big difference between the trivial observation that more men play basketball or code and the conjecture about why that is the case, in particular when it comes to intellectual pursuits. Discussions about the 'why' very quickly venture into personal beliefs as it's a hugely complex topic with lots of open questions, and in my opinion teachers who hold a lot of authority and can leave a lasting impression on students should probably avoid dabbling in conjecture when entire groups are involved. There have been some studies done on testing the math performance of female students when they were told that girls score worse, and that fact alone had a measurable impact on the test performance. The same has been done with low-income groups and so on. So even speculating from a position of authority can have a tremendous impact, I'm not sure it's the job of a CS teacher to publicly speculate about the motivation of entire groups of students.
- IAmEveryone 7y ago
  There's a difference in observing (your quote) and claiming to explain (and in the critic's eye: excuse) such data.
cgriswald 7y ago
You can listen to a portion of the debate here: https://omny.fm/shows/the-jason-rantz-show/5-minutes-of-a-student-debating-berating-professor https://omny.fm/shows/the-jason-rantz-show/5-minutes-of-a-st... And read the article here: https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/ https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  Wow. The author shows an astounding lack of perspective if he doesn't see the problem with either of these. He presents some data in the second link, but throws away any credibility he has by justifying the countless examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry as being backed up by whatever hand-picked statistics he wants. Reactionary politics at its finest. World's smallest violin; this guy is lucky to still have a job at all.
  - dash2 7y ago
    Could you give quotes to support the claim that he "justifies examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry"? I read the article - did I miss that part?
    - wayoutthere 7y ago
      By ignoring the numerous examples of violence (usually sexual) and intimidation that dissuade women from participating in the field. He confuses cause for effect in his quest to justify his pre-existing beliefs.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        Sounds like you're doing a bit of the same, and assuming that without discrimination outcomes would be different while ignoring any examples of cross-culture gender differences.
    - josteink 7y ago
      > Could you give quotes to support the claim that he "justifies examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry"? I read the article - did I miss that part? It's a cultural thing. Some people (particularly among the younger generation or in the trans-community) seems to equate having their opinions challenged count as some form of "violence" and intimidation. These people don't want a discussion, unless everyone up front agrees to only agree to their point of view. And somehow they are gaining ground, killing rational debate and freedom of speech, one tiny little step at a time, all in the name of tolerance and freedom.

oh_sigh 7y ago

Saying "women code less than men" does not have an implied "therefore you can just ignore any individual woman that codes" after it. Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"?

microtherion 7y ago
> Saying "women code less than men" does not have an implied "therefore you can just ignore any individual woman that codes" after it. When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". If somebody had said 40 years ago that "men play more soccer than women", this would have been correct as an empirical statement. However, it was also invariably taken as a normative statement, and subsequently less resources and encouragement were expended on women. And when the genders were later put on more equitable footing, the empirical fact turned out to be quite malleable. > Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"? As an individualist, one should always examine whether one extends the benefits of individualism to everyone, or whether one sees just one's own peers as individuals, while judging others as groups.
- wayoutthere 7y ago
  Yeah, this is just one example of the kind of violence and intimidation women face when entering male-dominated fields. Which is exactly why many women choose other fields.
  - darawk 7y ago
    Let's calm with the use of the word 'violence' here. Violence has an actual meaning, and it is not this, whether you agree with this guy or not.
- googlryas 7y ago
  This doesn't really follow. The original post seems to be about how the author is a hypocrite - now it is simply about him not having the right sensitivity levels for his statements.
  - microtherion 7y ago
    I was not so much trying to point out hypocrisy, as an apparent lack of self awareness. The author does not realize that he resorts to "group identities" as well, nor does he consider what kind of effect his statements as a teacher can have on his students. As another example of doubtful self awareness, the author mentions the enthusiastic reception of his "heterodox thinking" seminar — has he considered that receiving a perfect evaluation score (5 of 5) is NOT exactly evidence that the seminar has succeeded in instilling heterodox thinking in his students? And, given said lack of self awareness, I would not surprised if the author's attitudes about gender had more of an influence on his treatment of students than he realizes.
- darawk 7y ago
  > When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". > If somebody had said 40 years ago that "men play more soccer than women", this would have been correct as an empirical statement. However, it was also invariably taken as a normative statement, and subsequently less resources and encouragement were expended on women. And when the genders were later put on more equitable footing, the empirical fact turned out to be quite malleable. It is not "invariably taken" as a normative statement, especially not when its normative interpretation is literally and explicitly disclaimed by the author.
- manfredo 7y ago
  > When uttered by a teacher, it can easily be taken to have an implied "therefore I'll make less of an effort teaching them, or to encourage their career". What part of Reges' writing left you with this impression? He wrote the exact opposite: > As a result, I am absolutely convinced that for many years there have been—and even today still are—many women who have not yet discovered the bright future they can have in the field of computer science. Half of the women in our undergraduate major are ‘interest changers,’ which means they weren’t intending to apply to the major when they started our first course. For men the figure is closer to 20 percent, so there is a big gender gap. In short, I have always been and continue to be a strong advocate of many aspects of the diversity agenda.
Barrin92 7y ago
>Do you think it would be impossible for the perfect uber-individualist to ever make the statement "men play more basketball than women"? no but there's a really big difference between the trivial observation that more men play basketball or code and the conjecture about why that is the case, in particular when it comes to intellectual pursuits. Discussions about the 'why' very quickly venture into personal beliefs as it's a hugely complex topic with lots of open questions, and in my opinion teachers who hold a lot of authority and can leave a lasting impression on students should probably avoid dabbling in conjecture when entire groups are involved. There have been some studies done on testing the math performance of female students when they were told that girls score worse, and that fact alone had a measurable impact on the test performance. The same has been done with low-income groups and so on. So even speculating from a position of authority can have a tremendous impact, I'm not sure it's the job of a CS teacher to publicly speculate about the motivation of entire groups of students.
IAmEveryone 7y ago
There's a difference in observing (your quote) and claiming to explain (and in the critic's eye: excuse) such data.

cgriswald 7y ago

You can listen to a portion of the debate here: https://omny.fm/shows/the-jason-rantz-show/5-minutes-of-a-student-debating-berating-professor https://omny.fm/shows/the-jason-rantz-show/5-minutes-of-a-st... And read the article here: https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/ https://quillette.com/2018/06/19/why-women-dont-code/

wayoutthere 7y ago
Wow. The author shows an astounding lack of perspective if he doesn't see the problem with either of these. He presents some data in the second link, but throws away any credibility he has by justifying the countless examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry as being backed up by whatever hand-picked statistics he wants. Reactionary politics at its finest. World's smallest violin; this guy is lucky to still have a job at all.
- dash2 7y ago
  Could you give quotes to support the claim that he "justifies examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry"? I read the article - did I miss that part?
  - wayoutthere 7y ago
    By ignoring the numerous examples of violence (usually sexual) and intimidation that dissuade women from participating in the field. He confuses cause for effect in his quest to justify his pre-existing beliefs.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      Sounds like you're doing a bit of the same, and assuming that without discrimination outcomes would be different while ignoring any examples of cross-culture gender differences.
  - josteink 7y ago
    > Could you give quotes to support the claim that he "justifies examples of violence and intimidation against women in the industry"? I read the article - did I miss that part? It's a cultural thing. Some people (particularly among the younger generation or in the trans-community) seems to equate having their opinions challenged count as some form of "violence" and intimidation. These people don't want a discussion, unless everyone up front agrees to only agree to their point of view. And somehow they are gaining ground, killing rational debate and freedom of speech, one tiny little step at a time, all in the name of tolerance and freedom.