4 ms·

I consider forcing cows to go through pregnancy and giving birth, only to be immediately separated from their children so that they can go back to producing mil

I consider forcing cows to go through pregnancy and giving birth, only to be immediately separated from their children so that they can go back to producing milk for us, torture. That's just me though.

skinkestek 7y ago
I'll give you an upvote for that as it is thought provoking. Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. Compared to the much shorter lifespan of cows and the much longer time it takes for a human baby to become independent I think some cows spend more of the important time with their offspring than certain human mothers do. You might say it is voluntarily but I know that isn't the entire truth and I'm tempted to say as my socialist friend that slavery is still slavery even if it is wage slavery and the slave got to take responsibility for a whole lot more than they used to like feeding themselves, choosing a prtner in life and making sure they have a place to live.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. The OP was referring to "torturing" cows for milk, and you are referring to "torturing" women with respect to maternity leave. What is your definition of "torture"?
  - dEnigma 7y ago
    They were both talking about separating individuals (humans or animals) from their offspring and calling it a form of torture.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    That is an expectation, not a requirement. Back in socialism days in eastern Europe, it was forced - that indeed was torture.
    - MandieD 7y ago
      It’s a hotly-debated* expectation if you’re a married (or otherwise stably-partnered) middle class or richer woman, but a requirement if you’re single or poor, at least in the US. Well-off women with good jobs get a few months of paid leave (at most); poorer women with crappy jobs do not get paid leave, just a right to get their job back after 12 weeks of unpaid leave most of them can’t afford to take. *Hotly-debated because my friends (married, with well-paying jobs they really like) got varying amounts of pressure from their extended families and social circles not to work.
- Ghjklov 7y ago
  You might be surprised to hear this, but I would agree with that perspective. Most humans are just like cattle from the perspective of human society and throughout our lives will have resources extracted from us one way or another. The way I've seen some humans get out of this cycle is by becoming the ones who do the extracting. I don't think cows are capable of doing something so cruel though.
anonytrary 7y ago
When you put it like that, it almost certainly seems like torture. What's interesting to think about -- if a species/animal isn't capable of comprehending this emotional loss, then it is torture? Furthermore, how do we measure/know if an animal can actually feel such a deep emotional loss? Many animals cannot communicate. I am so interested to know what a cow thinks. What any animal thinks. It's easy to know what humans think because their informational bitrate is huge. IIRC cows can feel postpartum depression, so it makes sense that this would be torture. But if we did this to bacteria (maybe even bees), the moral dilemma seems to disappear.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Most mammals communicate pain in recognizable ways. Including cows and calves.
- klyrs 7y ago
  It seems that animal nervous systems are more humanlike than previously assumed, and apparently, cows are quite complex emotional animals. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201711/cows-science-shows-theyre-bright-and-emotional-individuals https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/2017... https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2015.0800 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2015.080...
marvin 7y ago
You'll quickly end up with some very unsettling conclusions if you follow this line of reasoning. I am not saying it's wrong, just that society isn't quite prepared for the implications. But, you know, if you assign human ethics to animals, there's relatively little we do to animals that's less than abhorrent. Pets are okay to a significant degree. But just about everything else falls out the window if you start to consider the idea that animals may be sentient and have thoughts, feelings and emotions the way that humans do. I guess what I'm saying that in an ideal world I'd be a vegan, but for now it's challenging enough to go through life eating everything nature has turned out to make possible. Nature is absolutely cruel (well, doesn't care at least), and humanity is just another part of it.
- AQuantized 7y ago
  If someone is at the point where they consider exploiting animals for their milk basically torture, I think they've probably already taken the logic to its natural conclusion.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  To be clear, you are saying that veganism is irrational because under vegan ethics, ...nonveganism is immoral? Furthermore, it's unclear how your argument is fixed at the human/non-human boundary. Nature is cruel intraspecies as well, so your line of thinking also challenges the notion that slavery and race- or clan-based oppression is wrong.
  - marvin 7y ago
    I'm saying that there'a a good argument to be made that we'll consider today's domestication, breeding and exploitation of animals immoral. But that the world isn't ready to make that moral judgement yet, because the alternatives to meat and animal products aren't convenient enough. We like to consider morality absolute, but it's strongly affected by a society's requirements. As a side note, vegans probably have a more sound moral judgement than the rest of us. There have obviously been cultures that considered slavery and various forms of oppression morally right, but I don't think my argument states that this is okay; quite the opposite.
yesenadam 7y ago
>only to be immediately separated from their children And then killing the children. And doing that again and again.
- prawn 7y ago
  Unless they use sexed semen (more expensive, but means they at least aren't producing male calves and then sending them off to be killed).
  - lonelappde 7y ago
    Cows produce more calves than are needed for dairy business.
    - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
      With rape racks. https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-rack/ https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra... (It’s not a cow running towards a yodeling Swiss milkmaid) [..] The “rape rack” is a narrow, chute-like device in which female cows are restrained while they undergo a process the dairy industry euphemistically refers to as “artificial insemination.” During artificial insemination (AI), a dairy worker inserts one of his arms into the rectum of a restrained cow and, with his other arm, inserts a rod-like device called an Al gun into her vagina. The Al gun, which contains bull semen, is pushed in further until it reaches the cervix (the entrance to the uterus). The semen is then injected into the uterus.[..]

skinkestek 7y ago

I'll give you an upvote for that as it is thought provoking. Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. Compared to the much shorter lifespan of cows and the much longer time it takes for a human baby to become independent I think some cows spend more of the important time with their offspring than certain human mothers do. You might say it is voluntarily but I know that isn't the entire truth and I'm tempted to say as my socialist friend that slavery is still slavery even if it is wage slavery and the slave got to take responsibility for a whole lot more than they used to like feeding themselves, choosing a prtner in life and making sure they have a place to live.

speedplane 7y ago
> Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. The OP was referring to "torturing" cows for milk, and you are referring to "torturing" women with respect to maternity leave. What is your definition of "torture"?
- dEnigma 7y ago
  They were both talking about separating individuals (humans or animals) from their offspring and calling it a form of torture.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  That is an expectation, not a requirement. Back in socialism days in eastern Europe, it was forced - that indeed was torture.
  - MandieD 7y ago
    It’s a hotly-debated* expectation if you’re a married (or otherwise stably-partnered) middle class or richer woman, but a requirement if you’re single or poor, at least in the US. Well-off women with good jobs get a few months of paid leave (at most); poorer women with crappy jobs do not get paid leave, just a right to get their job back after 12 weeks of unpaid leave most of them can’t afford to take. *Hotly-debated because my friends (married, with well-paying jobs they really like) got varying amounts of pressure from their extended families and social circles not to work.
Ghjklov 7y ago
You might be surprised to hear this, but I would agree with that perspective. Most humans are just like cattle from the perspective of human society and throughout our lives will have resources extracted from us one way or another. The way I've seen some humans get out of this cycle is by becoming the ones who do the extracting. I don't think cows are capable of doing something so cruel though.

anonytrary 7y ago

When you put it like that, it almost certainly seems like torture. What's interesting to think about -- if a species/animal isn't capable of comprehending this emotional loss, then it is torture? Furthermore, how do we measure/know if an animal can actually feel such a deep emotional loss? Many animals cannot communicate. I am so interested to know what a cow thinks. What any animal thinks. It's easy to know what humans think because their informational bitrate is huge. IIRC cows can feel postpartum depression, so it makes sense that this would be torture. But if we did this to bacteria (maybe even bees), the moral dilemma seems to disappear.

lonelappde 7y ago
Most mammals communicate pain in recognizable ways. Including cows and calves.
klyrs 7y ago
It seems that animal nervous systems are more humanlike than previously assumed, and apparently, cows are quite complex emotional animals. https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201711/cows-science-shows-theyre-bright-and-emotional-individuals https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/2017... https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2015.0800 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2015.080...

marvin 7y ago

You'll quickly end up with some very unsettling conclusions if you follow this line of reasoning. I am not saying it's wrong, just that society isn't quite prepared for the implications. But, you know, if you assign human ethics to animals, there's relatively little we do to animals that's less than abhorrent. Pets are okay to a significant degree. But just about everything else falls out the window if you start to consider the idea that animals may be sentient and have thoughts, feelings and emotions the way that humans do. I guess what I'm saying that in an ideal world I'd be a vegan, but for now it's challenging enough to go through life eating everything nature has turned out to make possible. Nature is absolutely cruel (well, doesn't care at least), and humanity is just another part of it.

AQuantized 7y ago
If someone is at the point where they consider exploiting animals for their milk basically torture, I think they've probably already taken the logic to its natural conclusion.
lonelappde 7y ago
To be clear, you are saying that veganism is irrational because under vegan ethics, ...nonveganism is immoral? Furthermore, it's unclear how your argument is fixed at the human/non-human boundary. Nature is cruel intraspecies as well, so your line of thinking also challenges the notion that slavery and race- or clan-based oppression is wrong.
- marvin 7y ago
  I'm saying that there'a a good argument to be made that we'll consider today's domestication, breeding and exploitation of animals immoral. But that the world isn't ready to make that moral judgement yet, because the alternatives to meat and animal products aren't convenient enough. We like to consider morality absolute, but it's strongly affected by a society's requirements. As a side note, vegans probably have a more sound moral judgement than the rest of us. There have obviously been cultures that considered slavery and various forms of oppression morally right, but I don't think my argument states that this is okay; quite the opposite.

yesenadam 7y ago

>only to be immediately separated from their children And then killing the children. And doing that again and again.

prawn 7y ago
Unless they use sexed semen (more expensive, but means they at least aren't producing male calves and then sending them off to be killed).
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Cows produce more calves than are needed for dairy business.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    With rape racks. https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-rack/ https://theirturn.net/2016/06/15/2016061420160613the-rape-ra... (It’s not a cow running towards a yodeling Swiss milkmaid) [..] The “rape rack” is a narrow, chute-like device in which female cows are restrained while they undergo a process the dairy industry euphemistically refers to as “artificial insemination.” During artificial insemination (AI), a dairy worker inserts one of his arms into the rectum of a restrained cow and, with his other arm, inserts a rod-like device called an Al gun into her vagina. The Al gun, which contains bull semen, is pushed in further until it reaches the cervix (the entrance to the uterus). The semen is then injected into the uterus.[..]