7 ms·

Obsession is an interesting way to characterize one of the great alternatives to cow's milk for people who cannot consume dairy or refuse to support the torture

Obsession is an interesting way to characterize one of the great alternatives to cow's milk for people who cannot consume dairy or refuse to support the torture of cows for their milk. The livelihood of bees or climate change? The duality of man.

WilliamEdward 7y ago
This is full of lies, it is not an ethical alternative to cow's milk because it uses a ton of natural resources to produce. It is also foolish to say bees and climate change are mutually exclusive factors. Bees being alive will help curb climate change. You cannot live without bees in the world. Put the almond milk down.
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > This is full of lies, it is not an ethical alternative to cow's milk because it uses a ton of natural resources to produce. What doesn't take a ton of resources to produce while still being nutritious? What's unethical about taking natural resources to produce food in the first place? Nature is all about eating itself, perpetually. > You cannot live without bees in the world. That's a myth.
  - klyrs 7y ago
    > What doesn't take a ton of resources to produce while still being nutritious? Absolutely? Nothing. Relatively? Just about anything but animals and nuts. Per gram of protein, nuts require more water than even beef: https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-...
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      Animals are pretty good at converting poor-quality plant protein into high-quality animal protein, along with certain micro-nutrients that plants do not contain at all, or at least not in a readily bio-available form. Also, water in and of itself isn't an exhaustible resource. If it becomes too expensive, water-hungry foods like almonds will simply price themselves out of the market.
      - klyrs 7y ago
        > Also, water in and of itself isn't an exhaustible resource Freshwater, on the other hand. > If it becomes too expensive, water-hungry foods like almonds will simply price themselves out of the market. This macroeconomic argument hasn't played well. I've heard people say that carbon-based fuels will price themselves out if externalities become too severe. The end game is brimksmanship, and macroeconomic reasoning says its fine to deprive a local poor population of drinking water if local businesses can make greater profits selling almonds.
eitland 7y ago
While I cannot speak for every farm that exists I've been working in dairy farming in Norway and torture isn't a word I would use. If those animals were tortured your wouldn't expect them to approach us almost like pets would do and generally behave as if they liked us. Edit: added "that exists" Also, FWIW since I grew up there's been introduced a number of regulations to improve animal welfare so I expect it to be better today that it used to be.
- Ghjklov 7y ago
  I consider forcing cows to go through pregnancy and giving birth, only to be immediately separated from their children so that they can go back to producing milk for us, torture. That's just me though.
  - skinkestek 7y ago
    I'll give you an upvote for that as it is thought provoking. Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. Compared to the much shorter lifespan of cows and the much longer time it takes for a human baby to become independent I think some cows spend more of the important time with their offspring than certain human mothers do. You might say it is voluntarily but I know that isn't the entire truth and I'm tempted to say as my socialist friend that slavery is still slavery even if it is wage slavery and the slave got to take responsibility for a whole lot more than they used to like feeding themselves, choosing a prtner in life and making sure they have a place to live.
    - speedplane 7y ago
      > Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. The OP was referring to "torturing" cows for milk, and you are referring to "torturing" women with respect to maternity leave. What is your definition of "torture"?
anonymoushn 7y ago
Growing almonds in California is pretty unethical. Have you tried oat milk?
- wayneftw 7y ago
  Oat milk is too sweet.
- Ghjklov 7y ago
  Agreed on that as a CA resident! I haven't tried oat milk but I see it around and it's good to have new alternatives. There's also soy milk and others like flaxseed milk. My comment was just about the article's characterization of almond milk drinkers. I wonder who would benefit from demonizing one of the few alternatives to cow's milk?
- markdown 7y ago
  Oat milk? Shouldn't that be oat juice? Oats aren't animals that produce milk for their offspring.
  - Jon_Lowtek 7y ago
    it's a marketing thing... you wouldn't understand.
    - markdown 7y ago
      Of course I understand the propensity for corporations to lie about their products. But words are supposed to mean things. You shouldn't be able to just make shit mean whatever you want it to mean. The propensity to lie in marketing is why there are rules against such behaviour in many jurisdictions. For example, in the US the term "ice cream" is reserved for frozen dairy desserts with a minimum fat content of 10%. Any less and you can't use the word "ice cream". Similarly, in the EU one would have to call the abomination you call "oat milk", oat drink or something similar, since "milk" is a protected denomination reserved only for mammary secretions.
      - 7y ago

WilliamEdward 7y ago

This is full of lies, it is not an ethical alternative to cow's milk because it uses a ton of natural resources to produce. It is also foolish to say bees and climate change are mutually exclusive factors. Bees being alive will help curb climate change. You cannot live without bees in the world. Put the almond milk down.

gridlockd 7y ago
> This is full of lies, it is not an ethical alternative to cow's milk because it uses a ton of natural resources to produce. What doesn't take a ton of resources to produce while still being nutritious? What's unethical about taking natural resources to produce food in the first place? Nature is all about eating itself, perpetually. > You cannot live without bees in the world. That's a myth.
- klyrs 7y ago
  > What doesn't take a ton of resources to produce while still being nutritious? Absolutely? Nothing. Relatively? Just about anything but animals and nuts. Per gram of protein, nuts require more water than even beef: https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-footprint/water-footprint-crop-and-animal-products/ https://waterfootprint.org/en/water-footprint/product-water-...
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    Animals are pretty good at converting poor-quality plant protein into high-quality animal protein, along with certain micro-nutrients that plants do not contain at all, or at least not in a readily bio-available form. Also, water in and of itself isn't an exhaustible resource. If it becomes too expensive, water-hungry foods like almonds will simply price themselves out of the market.
    - klyrs 7y ago
      > Also, water in and of itself isn't an exhaustible resource Freshwater, on the other hand. > If it becomes too expensive, water-hungry foods like almonds will simply price themselves out of the market. This macroeconomic argument hasn't played well. I've heard people say that carbon-based fuels will price themselves out if externalities become too severe. The end game is brimksmanship, and macroeconomic reasoning says its fine to deprive a local poor population of drinking water if local businesses can make greater profits selling almonds.

eitland 7y ago

While I cannot speak for every farm that exists I've been working in dairy farming in Norway and torture isn't a word I would use. If those animals were tortured your wouldn't expect them to approach us almost like pets would do and generally behave as if they liked us. Edit: added "that exists" Also, FWIW since I grew up there's been introduced a number of regulations to improve animal welfare so I expect it to be better today that it used to be.

Ghjklov 7y ago
I consider forcing cows to go through pregnancy and giving birth, only to be immediately separated from their children so that they can go back to producing milk for us, torture. That's just me though.
- skinkestek 7y ago
  I'll give you an upvote for that as it is thought provoking. Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. Compared to the much shorter lifespan of cows and the much longer time it takes for a human baby to become independent I think some cows spend more of the important time with their offspring than certain human mothers do. You might say it is voluntarily but I know that isn't the entire truth and I'm tempted to say as my socialist friend that slavery is still slavery even if it is wage slavery and the slave got to take responsibility for a whole lot more than they used to like feeding themselves, choosing a prtner in life and making sure they have a place to live.
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > Thinking about I fell down to my previous position though as otherwise I would have to consider the Western society to be torturing humans - and women in particular - by expecting them to go back to work within weeks or months after giving birth. The OP was referring to "torturing" cows for milk, and you are referring to "torturing" women with respect to maternity leave. What is your definition of "torture"?

anonymoushn 7y ago

Growing almonds in California is pretty unethical. Have you tried oat milk?

wayneftw 7y ago
Oat milk is too sweet.
Ghjklov 7y ago
Agreed on that as a CA resident! I haven't tried oat milk but I see it around and it's good to have new alternatives. There's also soy milk and others like flaxseed milk. My comment was just about the article's characterization of almond milk drinkers. I wonder who would benefit from demonizing one of the few alternatives to cow's milk?
markdown 7y ago
Oat milk? Shouldn't that be oat juice? Oats aren't animals that produce milk for their offspring.
- Jon_Lowtek 7y ago
  it's a marketing thing... you wouldn't understand.
  - markdown 7y ago
    Of course I understand the propensity for corporations to lie about their products. But words are supposed to mean things. You shouldn't be able to just make shit mean whatever you want it to mean. The propensity to lie in marketing is why there are rules against such behaviour in many jurisdictions. For example, in the US the term "ice cream" is reserved for frozen dairy desserts with a minimum fat content of 10%. Any less and you can't use the word "ice cream". Similarly, in the EU one would have to call the abomination you call "oat milk", oat drink or something similar, since "milk" is a protected denomination reserved only for mammary secretions.
    - 7y ago