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There are no such things as 'food deserts' and the healthiest food is in fact the cheapest: it's in the produce section. Kale and organic bananas are more expe

by jariel 7y ago

There are no such things as 'food deserts' and the healthiest food is in fact the cheapest: it's in the produce section. Kale and organic bananas are more expensive, but most veggies are ridiculously cheap. Meat on sale is not so bad. Processed food is more expensive. "“We can statistically conclude that the effect on healthy eating from opening new supermarkets was negligible at best,” So people given a choice don't eat healthy? How is this news? The poor are more likely to smoke as well - and that's expensive. But the Dollar Store and Wallmart are giving vast, vast surpluses in wealth to the poor by offering them really cheap, off brand stuff that's pretty much as good as the branded stuff. They might be contributing to the material wealth of the poor more than any other thing. If they didn't exist we'd be thinking: 'Stuff is cheap to make, we pay so much for 'brand' - how can we get inexpensive every day items to the poor'? Well, that's called the Dollar Store. Maybe we can spend more time teaching kids to cook basic meals in school? I don't know the answer but these do-gooders I feel are barking up the wrong tree.

habosa 7y ago
When you say food is "expensive" that has to factor in preparation time. That's what makes processed food so "cheap" is that it's pretty much ready to eat, at most needs 5m in the microwave. Yes if you buy bulk produce and beans and rice and take the time to prepare it well you can eat healthy and save money but it's hard to make that choice when you're comparing it to something delicious looking low effort junk food.
- debateyourself 7y ago
  You're saying the people are the problem. Demand determines the types of stores.
SaxonRobber 7y ago
There are food deserts, they are the places where residents will spend hours taking public transit just to go to the grocery store because they are too poor to own a car. This fucks with your life, it will be a challenge to get to the store every week and fresh produce will expire too quickly, so you need to stock up on preserved and canned goods. And when you get home after work and fridge is empty and the kids are hungry, you will end up going to a McDonald’s or Gas station or whatever is close and just picking what you can get. If you can’t believe this, then you have lived too privileged of a life.
- jariel 7y ago
  "If you can’t believe this, then you have lived too privileged of a life." I 'don't believe it' because it's false. There are no actual 'food deserts', it's just a misleading term that the USDA: "In 2010, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that 23.5 million Americans live in "food deserts", meaning that they live more than one mile from a supermarket in urban or suburban areas, and more than 10 miles from a supermarket in rural areas" 1 mile in suburban areas? This is not an 'hour on a bus'. In rural areas people must have cars. There is no evidence presented that this is a causal factor in any ability to access fresh food - in actual reality, science suggests quite the opposite. There is definitely no causal evidence that 'The Dollar Store' drives poor nutritional habits. Conversely - there is very clear evidence of at least the economic value of 'The Dollar Store' - and if you closed them, you'd cause an uproar and make poor people's lives even more difficult. Ironically - only a group of completely out of touch 'privileged' people would even consider shutting down dollar stores. If you asked poor people the answer would be 'absolutely not' and they would be materially much worse off. If they really want to do some economic and behavioural science, they can open up fruit & veg markets in these supposed 'deserts' and see what happens. What will happen is that they won't generate enough business to survive, unfortunately. Which would imply there's a host of other factors at play: "Using a structural demand model, we find that exposing low-income households to the same food availability and prices experienced by high-income households would reduce nutritional inequality by only 9%, while the remaining 91% is driven by differences in demand. In turn, these income-related demand differences are partially explained by education, nutrition knowledge, and regional preferences. These findings contrast with discussions of nutritional inequality that emphasize supply-side issues such as food deserts." [1] Healthy food does not generally cost more than unhealthy food [2], the issue of 'Food Deserts' is only marginally relevant and the widespread availability of 'Dollar Stores' is not relevant at all to nutrition. [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/political-incorrect-paper-day-food-deserts.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/po... [2] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/12/e004277.full?sid=820d6e1a-280e-47a6-b8c5-498bfa4657e3 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/12/e004277.full?sid=820d6e...
  - SaxonRobber 7y ago
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
Fresh vegetables aren't cheap if you cannot keep them from spoiling. You assume everyone has adequate refrigeration. Beans and rice and lentils are cheap: But you have to have the cooking utensils and time to cook them. It will help greatly if you have storage containers and freezer space. Hopefully your electric/gas aren't turned off in the meantime. Discount meats aren't too bad, but you have to be able to shop on the days they are discounted. Plus, as above, you must have adequate refrigeration and cooking stuff - and hopefully you are making soup. You are also completely neglecting that making these things taste of anything besides, well, meat is expensive. Spices aren't cheap. The cheapest place to buy spices is, well, at dollar stores (in general). This advice is like telling folks to buy in bulk - but it doesn't matter if the 10-pack is cheaper if you only have the money for the 2-pack and don't have the means to save up or take from other things. If we want folks to eat better, we should really give people the money and time to do so. Stronger safety nets and better public transportation and better workplace scheduling laws, for instance. Better supporting housing. Schools the can't pay for basic maintenance or have enough computers for students can't very well install kitchens to teach kids how to cook. To be fair, though, I'm over 40 and had "cooking lessons" where we learned how to set a table, made maybe one meal a week, and cooked as a group. We were 12 or 13. I was already cooking at the time, so it wasn't helpful. My sister failed one for changing a recipe slightly: It was cinnamon toast. These classes aren't really all they are cracked up to be. Plus, if you are in a poor area, you can't really give homework without providing food and making sure folks have access to cooking stuff.
- GordonS 7y ago
  > Spices aren't cheap. The cheapest place to buy spices is, well, at dollar stores (in general) With a few exceptions, I don't agree. The cheapest place to buy spices is an Asian supermarket or online, where you will easily find bags/tubs 10x bigger than those you'll find in a dollar store or supermarket, but for the same price or even cheaper. And once you've bought them, they last a long time (sometimes years!), because you're only using small quantities at a time. > Beans and rice and lentils are cheap: But you have to have the cooking utensils and time to cook them I mean, if you're not buying cold, ready to eat food, of course you need some way of cooking; I'm not really sure what your point is here. Regarding cooking time, rice takes 10-15 minutes on a stove, depending on how you cook it. Tinned beans are cheap and already cooked - you can actually make a cracking bean chilli for practically nothing.

by jariel 7y ago

habosa 7y ago

When you say food is "expensive" that has to factor in preparation time. That's what makes processed food so "cheap" is that it's pretty much ready to eat, at most needs 5m in the microwave. Yes if you buy bulk produce and beans and rice and take the time to prepare it well you can eat healthy and save money but it's hard to make that choice when you're comparing it to something delicious looking low effort junk food.

debateyourself 7y ago
You're saying the people are the problem. Demand determines the types of stores.

SaxonRobber 7y ago

There are food deserts, they are the places where residents will spend hours taking public transit just to go to the grocery store because they are too poor to own a car. This fucks with your life, it will be a challenge to get to the store every week and fresh produce will expire too quickly, so you need to stock up on preserved and canned goods. And when you get home after work and fridge is empty and the kids are hungry, you will end up going to a McDonald’s or Gas station or whatever is close and just picking what you can get. If you can’t believe this, then you have lived too privileged of a life.

jariel 7y ago
"If you can’t believe this, then you have lived too privileged of a life." I 'don't believe it' because it's false. There are no actual 'food deserts', it's just a misleading term that the USDA: "In 2010, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that 23.5 million Americans live in "food deserts", meaning that they live more than one mile from a supermarket in urban or suburban areas, and more than 10 miles from a supermarket in rural areas" 1 mile in suburban areas? This is not an 'hour on a bus'. In rural areas people must have cars. There is no evidence presented that this is a causal factor in any ability to access fresh food - in actual reality, science suggests quite the opposite. There is definitely no causal evidence that 'The Dollar Store' drives poor nutritional habits. Conversely - there is very clear evidence of at least the economic value of 'The Dollar Store' - and if you closed them, you'd cause an uproar and make poor people's lives even more difficult. Ironically - only a group of completely out of touch 'privileged' people would even consider shutting down dollar stores. If you asked poor people the answer would be 'absolutely not' and they would be materially much worse off. If they really want to do some economic and behavioural science, they can open up fruit & veg markets in these supposed 'deserts' and see what happens. What will happen is that they won't generate enough business to survive, unfortunately. Which would imply there's a host of other factors at play: "Using a structural demand model, we find that exposing low-income households to the same food availability and prices experienced by high-income households would reduce nutritional inequality by only 9%, while the remaining 91% is driven by differences in demand. In turn, these income-related demand differences are partially explained by education, nutrition knowledge, and regional preferences. These findings contrast with discussions of nutritional inequality that emphasize supply-side issues such as food deserts." [1] Healthy food does not generally cost more than unhealthy food [2], the issue of 'Food Deserts' is only marginally relevant and the widespread availability of 'Dollar Stores' is not relevant at all to nutrition. [1] https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/political-incorrect-paper-day-food-deserts.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/12/po... [2] https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/12/e004277.full?sid=820d6e1a-280e-47a6-b8c5-498bfa4657e3 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/3/12/e004277.full?sid=820d6e...
- SaxonRobber 7y ago

Broken_Hippo 7y ago

Fresh vegetables aren't cheap if you cannot keep them from spoiling. You assume everyone has adequate refrigeration. Beans and rice and lentils are cheap: But you have to have the cooking utensils and time to cook them. It will help greatly if you have storage containers and freezer space. Hopefully your electric/gas aren't turned off in the meantime. Discount meats aren't too bad, but you have to be able to shop on the days they are discounted. Plus, as above, you must have adequate refrigeration and cooking stuff - and hopefully you are making soup. You are also completely neglecting that making these things taste of anything besides, well, meat is expensive. Spices aren't cheap. The cheapest place to buy spices is, well, at dollar stores (in general). This advice is like telling folks to buy in bulk - but it doesn't matter if the 10-pack is cheaper if you only have the money for the 2-pack and don't have the means to save up or take from other things. If we want folks to eat better, we should really give people the money and time to do so. Stronger safety nets and better public transportation and better workplace scheduling laws, for instance. Better supporting housing. Schools the can't pay for basic maintenance or have enough computers for students can't very well install kitchens to teach kids how to cook. To be fair, though, I'm over 40 and had "cooking lessons" where we learned how to set a table, made maybe one meal a week, and cooked as a group. We were 12 or 13. I was already cooking at the time, so it wasn't helpful. My sister failed one for changing a recipe slightly: It was cinnamon toast. These classes aren't really all they are cracked up to be. Plus, if you are in a poor area, you can't really give homework without providing food and making sure folks have access to cooking stuff.

GordonS 7y ago
> Spices aren't cheap. The cheapest place to buy spices is, well, at dollar stores (in general) With a few exceptions, I don't agree. The cheapest place to buy spices is an Asian supermarket or online, where you will easily find bags/tubs 10x bigger than those you'll find in a dollar store or supermarket, but for the same price or even cheaper. And once you've bought them, they last a long time (sometimes years!), because you're only using small quantities at a time. > Beans and rice and lentils are cheap: But you have to have the cooking utensils and time to cook them I mean, if you're not buying cold, ready to eat food, of course you need some way of cooking; I'm not really sure what your point is here. Regarding cooking time, rice takes 10-15 minutes on a stove, depending on how you cook it. Tinned beans are cheap and already cooked - you can actually make a cracking bean chilli for practically nothing.