5 ms·

If you get convicted for embezzlement, as in the first example in the article, and don't pay your fines and restitution, what do you think the courts should do?

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
JimmyAustin 7y ago
Wage garnishment?
rtpg 7y ago
Wage garnishing is easy? If you have an employer then now they are on the hook for following through as well. Hell, shut down the restitution centers and use that budget to help cover court fees instead! Think about it: if someone gets fined $10,000 and is working minimum wage, is there really anything good accomplished by trying to recover that much? Just cap out some wage garnishment scheme if you want to fine them.
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  The criminal has an actual victim who needs his money back. It's pretty important to him (or her) that he gets his money back. Maybe she could pay the restitution with the money she embezzled. She also skipped her meeting with her probation officer, more than once, and she didn't report to the probation officer (or the court, whatever) that she got an increase in income, when she got her job at Harrah's. Funny, that. They don't mention that in the article, do they. Here's the hearing transcript: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-Husband-Revocation-Hearing-Transcript.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-Husba...
  - rtpg 7y ago
    - the fines are not merely around making victims whole. There’s also just fines as punishment on top of that - even if they are just about that, do you think that a debtors prison is going to get that money back sooner? - given how being broke in America is basically a death sentence, I have empathy for people trying to scrape by - (now we’re in income reporting reform!) why isn’t Harrahs reporting the wage increase? Why even give opportunities for lies/mistakes/omissions? Even if what you said is true, putting people in jail is not super ethical nor is it useful at accomplishing much for society, for the individuals involved, and “punishment as deference” is disproved so much. Not seeing the argument for this programs continued existence
  - lsiebert 7y ago
    Per the article, most of the money wasn't used for restitution, and many individuals are arrested for merely not paying fines and fees, no restitution given. That's just criminalizing being poor.
  - FireBeyond 7y ago
    Absolutely they mentioned it in the article.
    - SamReidHughes 7y ago
      Where do they mention that she didn't report an increase in income?
quickthrower2 7y ago
Should be treated like unsecured debt. Bankruptcy being an option.
fzeroracer 7y ago
So let's expand that out. Every crime has a monetary value. Once someone has gone to prison and paid their debt to society, is there any good reason according to you that we shouldn't then throw them in another prison until they pay restitution? Hell, maybe it's even a good thing that silcon valley could disrupt. Let's have companies skim a bit off the top and build smart prisons. They get to spend longer in debtor prison and others earn more money, it's a win/win.
- SamReidHughes 7y ago
  Because she was skipping meetings with her probation officer, you can infer she hasn't paid her debt to society. Not to mention, you know, the actual debt that she owed.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    I don't care about the particulars of the individual and you focusing on that is clearly deliberate to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand. What I'm talking about is that these sort of facilities shouldn't exist at all, full stop. Do you think that people that say, couldn't afford to pay their speeding ticket right away should be thrown into prison until they pay their debt?
    - SamReidHughes 7y ago
      I agree, embezzlers with priors should get a 15 year minimum sentence. Instead, Husband got let out(!) and had to meet a $250/month minimum payment. Far too lenient. It sounds to me like they’re actually trying to rehabilitate her. How much of her 7 year sentence has she actually served?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

JimmyAustin 7y ago

Wage garnishment?

rtpg 7y ago

Wage garnishing is easy? If you have an employer then now they are on the hook for following through as well. Hell, shut down the restitution centers and use that budget to help cover court fees instead! Think about it: if someone gets fined $10,000 and is working minimum wage, is there really anything good accomplished by trying to recover that much? Just cap out some wage garnishment scheme if you want to fine them.

SamReidHughes 7y ago
The criminal has an actual victim who needs his money back. It's pretty important to him (or her) that he gets his money back. Maybe she could pay the restitution with the money she embezzled. She also skipped her meeting with her probation officer, more than once, and she didn't report to the probation officer (or the court, whatever) that she got an increase in income, when she got her job at Harrah's. Funny, that. They don't mention that in the article, do they. Here's the hearing transcript: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-Husband-Revocation-Hearing-Transcript.html https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6598211-Annita-Husba...
- rtpg 7y ago
  - the fines are not merely around making victims whole. There’s also just fines as punishment on top of that - even if they are just about that, do you think that a debtors prison is going to get that money back sooner? - given how being broke in America is basically a death sentence, I have empathy for people trying to scrape by - (now we’re in income reporting reform!) why isn’t Harrahs reporting the wage increase? Why even give opportunities for lies/mistakes/omissions? Even if what you said is true, putting people in jail is not super ethical nor is it useful at accomplishing much for society, for the individuals involved, and “punishment as deference” is disproved so much. Not seeing the argument for this programs continued existence
- lsiebert 7y ago
  Per the article, most of the money wasn't used for restitution, and many individuals are arrested for merely not paying fines and fees, no restitution given. That's just criminalizing being poor.
- FireBeyond 7y ago
  Absolutely they mentioned it in the article.
  - SamReidHughes 7y ago
    Where do they mention that she didn't report an increase in income?

quickthrower2 7y ago

Should be treated like unsecured debt. Bankruptcy being an option.

fzeroracer 7y ago

So let's expand that out. Every crime has a monetary value. Once someone has gone to prison and paid their debt to society, is there any good reason according to you that we shouldn't then throw them in another prison until they pay restitution? Hell, maybe it's even a good thing that silcon valley could disrupt. Let's have companies skim a bit off the top and build smart prisons. They get to spend longer in debtor prison and others earn more money, it's a win/win.

SamReidHughes 7y ago
Because she was skipping meetings with her probation officer, you can infer she hasn't paid her debt to society. Not to mention, you know, the actual debt that she owed.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  I don't care about the particulars of the individual and you focusing on that is clearly deliberate to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand. What I'm talking about is that these sort of facilities shouldn't exist at all, full stop. Do you think that people that say, couldn't afford to pay their speeding ticket right away should be thrown into prison until they pay their debt?
  - SamReidHughes 7y ago
    I agree, embezzlers with priors should get a 15 year minimum sentence. Instead, Husband got let out(!) and had to meet a $250/month minimum payment. Far too lenient. It sounds to me like they’re actually trying to rehabilitate her. How much of her 7 year sentence has she actually served?