4 ms·

Wait, what really ? JavaScript evolved from scheme ?

bitwize 7y ago
Brendan Eich was originally going to embed Scheme into Netscape. But higher-ups said no, it has to be familiar and resemble popular languages like Java to get any traction. (They were right.) So Eich went in and threw something together over a few days, and boom -- JavaScript. JavaScript isn't Scheme, but it's close enough for most programmers working in the real world. (There's even a JavaScript version of SICP.) And while Hackernews rubs one out to Lisp Machine porn, our computers are slowly turning into JavaScript Machines.
- krackers 7y ago
  Are there any other features in common other than closures and first class functions? I'm not sure that makes Javascript closer to Scheme than any other language like Python (which also has a version of SICP).
  - bitwize 7y ago
    Well, lambdas can be multiline in JavaScript. At a higher level, JavaScript has Scheme's desirable "small language kernel" property. But ultimately, closures, first-class functions, and lexical scope are all anybody really cares about. The bits that set Scheme apart are tail-call optimization, hygienic macros, and first-class continuations. * Tail-call optimization fucks with your ability to have correct stack traces when an exception is thrown. You know, exceptions -- those things the Scheme implementor community didn't give much thought to until R6RS. Anyways, not having correct stack traces is a HUGE no-no in production code, which is why the JVM doesn't do TCO and never will. * Hygienic macros -- Common Lispers are snickering right now. As the article said, syntax-rules is tricky enough to implement without all the added shit syntax-case adds. They both are much more difficult to use than CL's DEFMACRO, and for what? To prevent a class of beginner-tier mistakes that are easily worked around with gensyms. And anyway, JavaScript programmers are one 'npm install' away from Babel or any number of other frameworks that parse, emit, or transform JavaScript ASTs, so so much for Lisp's killer feature in general. * Continuations -- you're fucking kidding me, right? Continuations are to programs what time travel is to stories: the implications of adding them will blow your brain, so if you're smart you won't use them.
    - macintux 7y ago
      > Anyways, not having correct stack traces is a HUGE no-no in production code I think that’s misleading. Not having a comprehensive stack trace is much more painful for imperative or especially OO code, where the state at the time of failure is practically impossible to discern. Erlang gets away with it (for decidedly non-trivial production code like much of the world’s cellular routing) because state is much easier to determine. (Or maybe I’m blowing smoke. Certainly that’s how it feels to me.)
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Scarbutt 7y ago
      Tail-call optimization fucks with your ability to have correct stack traces when an exception is thrown. Safari/JScore, the only browser to implement TCO solved this using shadow stacks.
    - throwaway17_17 7y ago
      I think it’s worth pointing out a few exceptions to what are decent critiques. As an aside, I agree that these three capabilities, along with first-class functions are essentially the commonly bullet pointed marketing keys for Scheme. TCO -> I see your point about stack tracing and tend to agree, but more importantly, one key difference between Javascript and Scheme is the focus on recursion. Javascript decided that imperative looping was the proper, idiomatic way to handle iterative expression construction. With this design decision, leaving aside whether the looping vs recursion is an equal trade, TCO was not going to be a priority and the style of programming grew around that first choice or iterative style. Hygienic Macros - I love macros. However, in contrast to your position, I like my macros like I like my martinis... clean, as a general rule. So while I like a basic assumption of hygienic macros I also want the capability to produce ugly dirty procedural macros to be available. But that is just a preference of mine. I agree that the wealth of options for automated and principled syntax tree manipulation and code generation makes the need for built in macros almost non-existent. Continuations -> while I understand the strong warning, drifted continuations enable some very nice coding possibilities, particularly implementations of generators, coroutines generally, and better callback syntax. Javascript just decided that instead of handing devs the keys to the Delorean they would just chauffeur everyone, i.e. they built constructs for these common and useful patterns directly into the language semantics. This is particularly the case for future based coroutines, now with the async/await sugar.
- buzzkillington 7y ago
  >Before I convince you that it’s crazy, let’s step back a bit and ask why would JS adherents make a statement like this to begin with? You don’t hear people saying, “Yeah, FORTRAN is basically Icon” or “Sather has a really solid SNOBOL core,” do you? Why this arbitrary pairing? After meticulous scientific research, I’ve discovered two historical reasons and one weird psychological one. [...] >In some weird organic process, the pantheon of programming languages have ordered themselves in terms of prestige. It’s as random but undeniable as music and fashion. Radiohead is on one end, and Nickelback is on the other. No one knows precisely how they got there, but there they are. >On the Radiohead end, you’ve got Common Lisp, Scheme, Smalltalk, and a few others. Scheme is even more Lisp than Lisp, so it’s like that weird avant garde band no one’s heard of that Radiohead always claims inspired their latest album. If Lisp is Radiohead, Scheme is Kraftwerk. https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/ https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isn...
  - ethbro 7y ago
    I love Kraftwerk! Maybe I should try Scheme?
    - afc 7y ago
      For what it's worth it, I absolutely love Kraftwerk but, having coded in Scheme for about a decade, I very much dislike Scheme. I'd take Haskell, C++, or Java over Scheme without hesitation. I feel that my life is too short to code in languages without static type checks.
      - bitwize 7y ago
        Yes, a static type system at least strong enough to support parametric polymorphism is an unmitigated win. JavaScript sucks in the same way Scheme does in this regard; but thankfully, there's TypeScript.
        alharith 7y ago
        Try ReasonML
- quickthrower2 7y ago
  I learned lisp for probably a good 60 minutes (!) and it’s an eye opener for JS. A lot more JS idioms make sense now. Well worth doing if your a JS slinger.
  - kccqzy 7y ago
    I did it the other way around. I wrote some JS before I really learned about JS idioms and a lot of my earlier code looked weird. Like the way I construct an object is to write a function (constructor) that does initialization and then returns an object full of closures, instead of assigning a function to Foo.prototype.bar etc.
  - bjoli 7y ago
    I had a very nice experience when trying rust with a couple of friends. I just wrote rust much like I would write scheme and, after using immutable.rs, I wrote pretty efficient code without actually fighting the borrow checker at all. My friends, coming from hopelessly mutable languages like python, could hardly get any work done at all. This was back in late 2017, and things might have gotten better since.
- dilap 7y ago
  > (They were right.) I remember at first no one took js seriously. It was only after people started to realize that web pages were an incredibly compelling app-platform that that befan to change. So I think if Brendan had gone with Scheme, Scheme would be taking over the world like js is now. Basically, platforms make languages popular, not the other way around.
  - afiori 7y ago
    The risk for this would be that a Schemescript would maybe me less universal had other browser decided to adopt a more java-like language instead
- jhoechtl 7y ago
  > JavaScript isn't Scheme, but it's close enough for most programmers working in the real world. Yeah, a Buick is like a Toyota. Both can get you where you want to go. But close enough?
- dang 7y ago
  > while Hackernews rubs one out That's gross. Please don't do that here.
1propionyl 7y ago
No. It's a joke. See also: how perl8.com used to redirect to scala.com
tasogare 7y ago
No. It’s a meme that has almost no technical grounds.
BrendanEich 7y ago
No, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 (first few minutes).

Brendan Eich was originally going to embed Scheme into Netscape. But higher-ups said no, it has to be familiar and resemble popular languages like Java to get any traction. (They were right.) So Eich went in and threw something together over a few days, and boom -- JavaScript. JavaScript isn't Scheme, but it's close enough for most programmers working in the real world. (There's even a JavaScript version of SICP.) And while Hackernews rubs one out to Lisp Machine porn, our computers are slowly turning into JavaScript Machines.

krackers 7y ago
Are there any other features in common other than closures and first class functions? I'm not sure that makes Javascript closer to Scheme than any other language like Python (which also has a version of SICP).
- bitwize 7y ago
  Well, lambdas can be multiline in JavaScript. At a higher level, JavaScript has Scheme's desirable "small language kernel" property. But ultimately, closures, first-class functions, and lexical scope are all anybody really cares about. The bits that set Scheme apart are tail-call optimization, hygienic macros, and first-class continuations. * Tail-call optimization fucks with your ability to have correct stack traces when an exception is thrown. You know, exceptions -- those things the Scheme implementor community didn't give much thought to until R6RS. Anyways, not having correct stack traces is a HUGE no-no in production code, which is why the JVM doesn't do TCO and never will. * Hygienic macros -- Common Lispers are snickering right now. As the article said, syntax-rules is tricky enough to implement without all the added shit syntax-case adds. They both are much more difficult to use than CL's DEFMACRO, and for what? To prevent a class of beginner-tier mistakes that are easily worked around with gensyms. And anyway, JavaScript programmers are one 'npm install' away from Babel or any number of other frameworks that parse, emit, or transform JavaScript ASTs, so so much for Lisp's killer feature in general. * Continuations -- you're fucking kidding me, right? Continuations are to programs what time travel is to stories: the implications of adding them will blow your brain, so if you're smart you won't use them.
  - macintux 7y ago
    > Anyways, not having correct stack traces is a HUGE no-no in production code I think that’s misleading. Not having a comprehensive stack trace is much more painful for imperative or especially OO code, where the state at the time of failure is practically impossible to discern. Erlang gets away with it (for decidedly non-trivial production code like much of the world’s cellular routing) because state is much easier to determine. (Or maybe I’m blowing smoke. Certainly that’s how it feels to me.)
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Scarbutt 7y ago
    Tail-call optimization fucks with your ability to have correct stack traces when an exception is thrown. Safari/JScore, the only browser to implement TCO solved this using shadow stacks.
  - throwaway17_17 7y ago
    I think it’s worth pointing out a few exceptions to what are decent critiques. As an aside, I agree that these three capabilities, along with first-class functions are essentially the commonly bullet pointed marketing keys for Scheme. TCO -> I see your point about stack tracing and tend to agree, but more importantly, one key difference between Javascript and Scheme is the focus on recursion. Javascript decided that imperative looping was the proper, idiomatic way to handle iterative expression construction. With this design decision, leaving aside whether the looping vs recursion is an equal trade, TCO was not going to be a priority and the style of programming grew around that first choice or iterative style. Hygienic Macros - I love macros. However, in contrast to your position, I like my macros like I like my martinis... clean, as a general rule. So while I like a basic assumption of hygienic macros I also want the capability to produce ugly dirty procedural macros to be available. But that is just a preference of mine. I agree that the wealth of options for automated and principled syntax tree manipulation and code generation makes the need for built in macros almost non-existent. Continuations -> while I understand the strong warning, drifted continuations enable some very nice coding possibilities, particularly implementations of generators, coroutines generally, and better callback syntax. Javascript just decided that instead of handing devs the keys to the Delorean they would just chauffeur everyone, i.e. they built constructs for these common and useful patterns directly into the language semantics. This is particularly the case for future based coroutines, now with the async/await sugar.
buzzkillington 7y ago
>Before I convince you that it’s crazy, let’s step back a bit and ask why would JS adherents make a statement like this to begin with? You don’t hear people saying, “Yeah, FORTRAN is basically Icon” or “Sather has a really solid SNOBOL core,” do you? Why this arbitrary pairing? After meticulous scientific research, I’ve discovered two historical reasons and one weird psychological one. [...] >In some weird organic process, the pantheon of programming languages have ordered themselves in terms of prestige. It’s as random but undeniable as music and fashion. Radiohead is on one end, and Nickelback is on the other. No one knows precisely how they got there, but there they are. >On the Radiohead end, you’ve got Common Lisp, Scheme, Smalltalk, and a few others. Scheme is even more Lisp than Lisp, so it’s like that weird avant garde band no one’s heard of that Radiohead always claims inspired their latest album. If Lisp is Radiohead, Scheme is Kraftwerk. https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/ https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isn...
- ethbro 7y ago
  I love Kraftwerk! Maybe I should try Scheme?
  - afc 7y ago
    For what it's worth it, I absolutely love Kraftwerk but, having coded in Scheme for about a decade, I very much dislike Scheme. I'd take Haskell, C++, or Java over Scheme without hesitation. I feel that my life is too short to code in languages without static type checks.
    - bitwize 7y ago
      Yes, a static type system at least strong enough to support parametric polymorphism is an unmitigated win. JavaScript sucks in the same way Scheme does in this regard; but thankfully, there's TypeScript.
      - alharith 7y ago
        Try ReasonML
quickthrower2 7y ago
I learned lisp for probably a good 60 minutes (!) and it’s an eye opener for JS. A lot more JS idioms make sense now. Well worth doing if your a JS slinger.
- kccqzy 7y ago
  I did it the other way around. I wrote some JS before I really learned about JS idioms and a lot of my earlier code looked weird. Like the way I construct an object is to write a function (constructor) that does initialization and then returns an object full of closures, instead of assigning a function to Foo.prototype.bar etc.
- bjoli 7y ago
  I had a very nice experience when trying rust with a couple of friends. I just wrote rust much like I would write scheme and, after using immutable.rs, I wrote pretty efficient code without actually fighting the borrow checker at all. My friends, coming from hopelessly mutable languages like python, could hardly get any work done at all. This was back in late 2017, and things might have gotten better since.
dilap 7y ago
> (They were right.) I remember at first no one took js seriously. It was only after people started to realize that web pages were an incredibly compelling app-platform that that befan to change. So I think if Brendan had gone with Scheme, Scheme would be taking over the world like js is now. Basically, platforms make languages popular, not the other way around.
- afiori 7y ago
  The risk for this would be that a Schemescript would maybe me less universal had other browser decided to adopt a more java-like language instead
jhoechtl 7y ago
> JavaScript isn't Scheme, but it's close enough for most programmers working in the real world. Yeah, a Buick is like a Toyota. Both can get you where you want to go. But close enough?
dang 7y ago
> while Hackernews rubs one out That's gross. Please don't do that here.

1propionyl 7y ago

No. It's a joke. See also: how perl8.com used to redirect to scala.com

tasogare 7y ago

No. It’s a meme that has almost no technical grounds.

BrendanEich 7y ago

No, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX3ZABCdC38 (first few minutes).