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Think Debtors Prisons Are a Thing of the Past? Not in Mississippi
- bigcohoneypot 7y agoHow is this constitutional?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- apocalypstyx 7y ago13th Amendment Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
- thaumasiotes 7y agoI don't think failing to pay a debt is a "crime" under American law. Edit: reading the article, these people have failed to pay the fines associated with criminal convictions.
- alphabettsy 7y agoPeople are regularly jailed for civil infractions such as traffic tickets, and failing to pay fines from such infractions. They are also held on bail when they cannot afford to pay, this is before found guilty of any crime.
- rayiner 7y agoTraffic tickets in many states are criminal violations. Here in Maryland, for example, there are no civil infractions except for automated red light cameras. Even a normal speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction.
- whiddershins 7y agoA speeding ticket is a misdemeanor criminal conviction. This beggars belief. Can you provide sources or citations. Quick googling finds no references to this absolutely implausible scenario.
- rayiner 7y agohttps://www.atlantaduilawyer.com/blog/is-a-speeding-ticket-a-misdemeanor-in-georgia/ https://www.atlantaduilawyer.com/blog/is-a-speeding-ticket-a...
- Hydraulix989 7y agoThey aren’t a thing of the past. Debt related criminal offenses are just charged differently as contempt of court or fraud: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/debtors-prison-aclu-report-details-criminalization-private-debt-n849996 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/debtors-prison-aclu-rep...
- catalogia 7y agoFrom what I understand there are a metric fuckton of people imprisoned for inability to pay child support, so I'd say debtor prisons aren't limited to Mississippi.
- teachrdan 7y agoPeople in other states who are imprisoned for inability to pay child support, etc. are released at the end of a finite sentence; they are not held indefinitely until they pay off an ever-increasing debt to the state at a low wage job. That's what defines debtors prisons.
- catalogia 7y agoOne is certainly more severe than the other, but in either case if people are getting imprisoned over debts, it seems like a pretty shitty situation. Do you disagree?
- BubRoss 7y agoThat's not what this article is about. It's about "How the state’s “restitution program” forces poor people to work off small debts."
- peteretep 7y agoIt’s disappointing to see factual comments like this downvoted
- Nextgrid 7y agoThe more I read about "justice" in the US the more I realise how fucked up and perverted the concept of justice is in that country. We're always quick to criticise other countries for the failings or bad design of their justice system and lack of respect for human rights, but are we much better? We might be better on paper, but is that actually reflected in reality? I'm not so sure.
- duxup 7y ago>but are we much better? Generally yes. Worldwide the bar is not high.
- Retric 7y agoOnly if you consider having the highest percentage of population in incarcerated as winning. United States represents about 4.4 percent of the world's population, it houses around 22 percent of the world's prisoners. So yay go USA!
- duxup 7y agoThere's lots of space between recognizing a system is better than most and "So yay go USA!"
- LyndsySimon 7y ago“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.” - Winston Churchill
- giancarlostoro 7y agoIn that regard sure we arent the best. But there are far worse countries.
- dfsgioninio 7y agoThe U.S. has the single highest incarceration rate in the world. In that respect, we have the worst criminal justice system in the world. Other metrics matter, of course, but let's not kid ourselves: the American system is an unmitigated disaster.
- motohagiography 7y agoThe scandal is the mainstream press hasn't raised this and related problems in the justice system. They really only have one job, and no amount of "concern" for political issues is sufficient to compensate for the shameful oversight of issues like this. I'd argue any writer with a Pulitzer should hand it back until they have personally effected change in justice and prison reform. I'm angry that the system works this way, but I'm even angrier that people who do nothing but write for a living get to do so without making this a national priority.
- mikeyouse 7y agoThis is silly. The "mainstream press" is nothing more than a mirror. If there were widespread outrage about justice and prison reform, there would be much more coverage of it. There really just isn't much interest, and it's honestly as fervent on the pro-punishment side as the reform side (e.g. Jeff Sessions' disastrous but celebrated term as Attorney General in rolling back progress made at the Federal level: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jeff-sessions-is-trying-to-take-criminal-justice-back-to-the-1990s/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jeff-sessions-is-trying...)
- alphabettsy 7y agoAs with many other issues in the US, there’s a connection to wealth and race. Civil rights organizations have been talking about this for years with their pleas mostly falling on deaf ears. Some major media started covering it after looking into some of the larger reasons behind the protests in Ferguson, MO. There have been quite a few advocates in the “far-left” political spectrum like Bernie Sanders and some places have ended cash bail. https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-introduces-bill-to-end-money-bail https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sande... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/nyregion/kalief-browder-cash-bail-reform.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/nyregion/kalief-browder-c... https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642795284/california-becomes-first-state-to-end-cash-bail https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642795284/california-becomes-... https://www.npr.org/2018/09/02/644085158/what-changed-after-d-c-ended-cash-bail https://www.npr.org/2018/09/02/644085158/what-changed-after-... https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/jailed-for-being-broke-72132/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/jailed-f... Similar to our newly found compassion for people struggling with drug addiction, this won’t be solved until we stop viewing those affected as “others”. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-you-could-go-to-debtors-prison-in-the-u-s/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-you-could-go-to-debtors-pri... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-debtors-prison-make-a-comeback/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-debtors-prison-make-a-com... https://www.propublica.org/article/a-lawsuit-over-ferguson-debtors-prison-drags-on https://www.propublica.org/article/a-lawsuit-over-ferguson-d... http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/Ferguson-sued-modern-day-debtors-prison http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/Ferguson-sued-modern-day-debtors-... https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors-prison/462378/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors... https://www.npr.org/2014/05/21/313118629/supreme-court-ruling-not-enough-to-prevent-debtors-prisons https://www.npr.org/2014/05/21/313118629/supreme-court-rulin... - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/as-economy-flails-debtors-prisons-thrive/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/as-economy-flails-debtors-priso... - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/magazine/cities-fine-poor-jail.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/magazine/cities-fine-poor... It’s not true that’s it’s not been talked about, or even that it’s not covered by mainstream media. Many people are not paying attention and some mainstream media are actively against criminal justice reform. https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-criminal-justice-reform-enforcement https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-criminal-just... It’s a political issue and a human rights issue, but politics is often reduced to sound bites with few taking the effort to really understand an issue and support those working to change it. There are also unsurprising contradictions. The Trump administration signed legislation that addresses sentencing disparities in the war on drugs while simultaneously resuming federal death penalty executions even while its been widely reported that possibly more than 1 in 10 of those of death row are innocent.
- ecoled_ame 7y agoStrange that she decided to have three kids when she could barely even manage her finances.
- thaumasiotes 7y agoWho said she decided? She may have just perceived it as one of those things that happens.
- ecoled_ame 7y agoPeople think pregnancy just .. happens?
- BubRoss 7y agoThat's how the majority of humanity has come into existence.
- ecoled_ame 7y agoI know, it’s one of the saddest aspects of existence in my opinion. I wish every child was planned for, had a job and housing lined up for them before birth. Instead we live in a random survival free-for-all. Sex is seen practically as a recreational activity, children as either unintentional accumulated byproducts or vague milestones of personal or economic achievement.
- BubRoss 7y agoYou can wish all you want, it doesn't change reality.
- ecoled_ame 7y agoAll changes start with a dream
- pasttense01 7y ago"Looking back, Husband said she was punished for being poor..." Nonsense: she was punished for embezzling $11,000 from her place of employment.
- jdsully 7y agoAt first I nodded in agreement. Then I wondered if someone had the $11,000 would they still be in jail?
- rayiner 7y agoConvictions for theft and embezzlement usually have two separate punishments: imprisonment and restitution (give back what you stole). As to the restitution part only, being able to pay back the money can avoid imprisonment related to the restitution judgment. But there is nothing unfair about that.
- jdsully 7y agoPaying restitution is one thing, being forced to stay in jail while paying it back is quite another. Normally these cases are handled with garnished wages.
- JamesBarney 7y agoThe idea that if you give back what you stole your punishment will be lessened is as old as theft.
- FireBeyond 7y agoTo be clear, there wasn't _only_ restitution (center) punishment. She was placed on probation for 5 years of a 7 year sentence. Except she was also being "held" at the restitution center while that part of her sentence was being carried out.
- nickthemagicman 7y ago
- TomMckenny 7y agoThe "except as a punishment for crime" in the 13th amendment was not in the first drafts. But less progressive minded forces got in the final version with the obvious intent of using it[1]. And it has certainly gotten a lot of use in spite of occasional whack-a-mole attempts to moderate it. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Peonage_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
- rayiner 7y ago> A judge sentenced Husband to the restitution center in 2015 to pay off almost $13,000 she owed from an embezzlement conviction in 2009. > The State of Mississippi had locked Husband into a modern-day debtors prison. Let’s agree that this sort of punishment is potentially not conducive to restorative justice. But what justification is there for the article to deceive the reader with a comparison to debtors prisons? The EU Convention on Human Rights bans debtors prisons. It states: "No one shall be deprived of his liberty merely on the ground of inability to fulfil a contractual obligation." Restitution as punishment for a crime does not arise out of a “contractual obligation.” It arises out of a criminal conviction.
- romwell 7y agoPotato potato, that person would not have been in prison had they paid off the debt. Where the debt comes from matters why exactly? The prison should be for one purpose only: to make society safer. If someone is dangerous enough to be in prison, they should not be out regardless of whether they owe money or not. In other words, if you can't buy your way out of prison, a debt should not bring you into one.
- wavefunction 7y agoI will expand upon your point. Debt in this case is a civil matter between two private individuals. The State has an interest only, if that, in enforcing court decisions such as garnishment of wages or liens. To sentence someone to jail or prison for the crime of a civil disagreement is sick and wrong and I invite you (abstract yous) to prove me wrong via rhetoric.
- underdown 7y ago"People sent to the centers had been sentenced for felonies but didn’t commit violent crimes, according to the program rules. "
- toasterlovin 7y agoAccording to the information in this thread, the amount owed was for a criminal conviction for embezzlement. This is not about a contract between private parties.
- Y-Bopinator 7y agoI can’t believe they are forcing black people to work. What a travesty. This is cruel and unusual punishment.
- rubyn00bie 7y agoYeah, this is fucking insane, from top-to-bottom... left-to-right... inside-and-out... fucking insane. This is quite literally forced indentured servitude, or what I normally call "slavery." This is fucking slavery. At no point should one be forced to work before or after they've already paid their "debt" to society; extreme circumstances not withstanding (i.e. you still have a billion dollars after serving your time and can easily afford to pay back your debt). At no point, should ANYONE, be required to be imprisoned, worked, and have daily wages withheld for the "cost" of that imprisonment, furthering their imprisonment-- this is straight up a fucking violation of human rights and theft, the interest rate on the withholding is very likely not paid back, but I'm 100% sure they (prison owners or faction in that industry) profit on it. Where can I donate what little money I have to stopping this fucked up practice and making it illegal? Maybe I missed it in the article due to the increasing amounts of (naive) disbelief and (pure) rage I encountered as I read it.
- cheez 7y agoI'm sure you can contact the lawyers involved.
- paulddraper 7y ago> At no point should be forced to work before or aftere they've already paid their "debt" to society Weird wording. The fact that the debt has not been paid is why they're working, no? My dad's accountant embezzled from his business. The person spent all the money over the years and by the the time they were caught, there was little left. And unfortunately, that's a pretty typical story. (FYI, business insurance may or may not cover internal theft; that's often a separate policy or a rider.) In the end, the crime netted a hefty sum at the expense of the victim. If you take something, you should have to give it back. IDK what this vague "debt to society" is; I just know my dad is out $100k+.
- Zenbit_UX 7y agoThat really sucks for your dad and this may be hard for you to answer objectively given your proximity to the situation but imagine if the guy who robbed your dad got tossed into this place with $100k + court fees and maybe child support if he had kids. At minimum wage pay, with ~20% of his earnings going to pay down the debt that's effectively a life sentence. My question to you is, does that seem fair for what is essentially a white collar, non-violent crime?
- throwaway838475 7y agoThe US has the highest real incarceration per capita on the planet except Seychelles, mostly for nonviolent crimes that were instituted (War on Drugs) by Nixon to attack the poor, minorities and other “opponents.” Also consider the number of for-profit prisons and the prison industrial complex that runs transportation, staffing and internal services for the public prisons. It’s also worth carefully re-reading the text of the 13th amendment. The giant slavery loophole is as-intended. The Union lost the Civil War while it got to declare “Mission Accomplished” because Abraham Lincoln sold-out civil society. Slavery continues as corporations profit by exploiting cheap labor paid on average under $1/hour. Systematic disenfranchisement is profitable.
- toasterlovin 7y agoYour comment is incredibly hyperbolic. The Union won the civil war. Slavery in its most overwhelmingly common form was ended. Millions of black Americans were freed. Whatever his other faults and shortcomings, Lincoln presided over the sacrifice of many men’s lives to bring about that momentous change.
- ShroudedNight 7y ago> The Mississippi Department of Corrections, or MDOC, repeatedly declined our requests to visit the restitution centers and to discuss them with state officials. But in a statement issued in late December in response to our findings, the department noted that it follows state law when operating the restitution program. If this program were one of integrity and justice, it should not have a problem exposing its complete workings to its citizens. Notwithstanding the possibility of unreported history here, this stinks. >Darrell Bridges says he earned almost $2,000 working at Checkers during his stint in the Pascagoula Restitution Center in 2013. But the money was never applied to the $3,403 debt he owed from an attempted robbery when he was 17, records show. >As a worker makes money, the corrections department takes the first cut in room and board, then usually holds the remaining earnings until there’s enough to pay the entire debt. When someone leaves the program, the corrections department sends their earnings to the court to cover its costs. It distributes the rest to victims, then to pay criminal fines. Indefinite debt bondage is unjust in any form, but the state and its agents reserving for itself the lion share of this feast of blood and life is especially reprehensible.
- Clubber 7y agoSadly, this happens in a lot of states. If you owe a fine and don't pay it because you can't, they'll keep tacking on interest until it reaches a certain limit, then throw you in jail. Our current state of government scares the hell out of me.
- csense 7y agoWhat's the alternative? Fines and jail are basically the legal system's two main options for punishment. If a poor person commits a crime, that's not serious enough to throw them in jail, what should the legal system do? It seems like "If you're poor, you can commit non-felony crimes without consequences" seems like a REAL bad policy idea.
- Clubber 7y agoDepends. If it's car related, revoke the license until the payment is made. Maybe do what the debt collectors do and harass them on the phone or garnish wages. Another thought, maybe we shouldn't make so many things crimes. We only do it to pay for the obscenely large justice and policing system. To me it just seems like a jobs program with a very steep societal cost. I would think throwing someone in jail who owes money for a fine is very counter productive, considering how much it costs to incarcerate and jail someone. It's like spending $5000 to not collect a $500 debt. We aren't very good at government.
- loblollyboy 7y agoEmbezzlement