9 ms·

Mubarak to step down tonight

249 points by shortlived 16y ago

JoeAltmaier 16y ago
"Demands will be met", "Mubarak will meet with the people". Hopeful! But the headline should be "Mubarak may step down tonight"
- tobych 16y ago
  Or as the BBC news website currently has it: Egypt's Mubarak 'may stand down'
- eru 16y ago
  Al-Jazeera has "Hosni Mubarak 'may step down'" (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/20112101653445426.html http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011210...).
cma 16y ago
The vice president that will take over was trained in Fort Bragg, NC. He has been the head of the Egyptian side of the "extraordinary rendition" joint-US torture program. If you want some scale for the corruption going on in Egypt, look into why Mubarak is wealthier than Bill Gates.
- iuygtfrikuj 16y ago
  From consultancy payments from US defense suppliers?
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- DanI-S 16y ago
  We shouldn't draw some arbitrary border around Egypt's corruption. Our governments directly benefited from it; we're all implicit in it. Western support of regimes like this /has/ to end.
  - cma 16y ago
    I am aware and I agree; I wasn't drawing a border.
    - DanI-S 16y ago
      I guess I was just responding to "the corruption going on in Egypt". I didn't mean to indicate you in particular, apologies if it comes across that way.
  - erikpukinskis 16y ago
    complicit
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
- jsm386 16y ago
  The 70 billion dollar figure was based on pure speculation. FWIW, US gov is estimating closer to 2 billion http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/10/6024993-mubarak-egypts-2-billion-man http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/10/6024993-muba...
  - mkr-hn 16y ago
    The number isn't too important past a certain point. He's going to live a comfortable life wherever he goes.
    - eru 16y ago
      From a material point of view.
    - goatforce5 16y ago
      ...assuming he makes it out.
- DevX101 16y ago
  For the curious, it's been estimated that Mubarak's wealth stands between 40 - 70 billion dollars. This number seems shaky to me, but according to US officials he's worth at least 2 billion. No one knows for sure, and he has distributed it amongst his family, but it is all but certain he's keeping that money. How did he get so rich? Well if you have a major business and you would like to expand into Egypt, the law requires 51% Egyptian ownership. I'm not privy to the investment ownership of companies based in Egypt, but its a pretty good bet that Mubarak enforced a pay to play scheme to major and minor corporations.
- fdsafsdf 16y ago
  Egypt is a military ally of the US and it sends its generals for training there. Other allies of the US do so as well (for example: Israel's prime minister and minister of defence have also studied in America). Suleiman was the head of intelligence, and thus responsible for all intelligence programs that Egypt had with America. Why would you single out the rendition program? For some reason, you're pulling two questionably relevant facts from his biography and present them with a conspiratorial tone.
  - cma 16y ago
    >his biography I was talking about two different people in my comment.
  - MichaelSalib 16y ago
    Managing intelligence programs isn't necessarily a problem. The real issue is that Sulemain was actively involved in torturing people for the US government. This isn't some nutty conspiracy: it has been reported extensively. For example, see Jane Mayer's book The Dark Side (Mayer is a journalist at the New Yorker and before that the Wall Street Journal). The fact that Sulemain has been so deeply complicit in torture for the US government suggests that he's likely to keep power and US backing. The fact that Mubarak's hand picked replacement is directly responsible for torturing many people on behalf of the US government seems pretty damn relevant to just about everything.
- _delirium 16y ago
  This is interesting if true, from the BBC liveblog: Sources close to the army tell the BBC’s Christian Fraser in Cairo that the military stepped in to stop the president handing power to his second in command Omar Suleiman.
warfangle 16y ago
There's more detail over on Al Jazeera English: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/10/live-blog-feb-10-egypt-protests http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/10/live-blog-...
- losvedir 16y ago
  The live blog is excellent for getting a sense of what's been happening, seeing the story unfold. Youtube is broadcasting Aljazeera English live here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker . Mubarak was supposed to speak at 10pm Egypt time (40 mins ago), but hasn't yet. I wonder when he will and what he'll say. I encourage everyone to find a live feed of what's going on over there (e.g. the youtube link above) and follow along. History in the making, perhaps?
torme 16y ago
Is this really any different? They're just instating the VP instead, who I imagine is probably not much better. This might make sense if they're planning to hold another election shortly thereafter. That way, at least the figurehead is out of office, and there's the potential for a peaceful transition for a replacement. Given the level of corruption though, is that even a possibility?
- iuygtfrikuj 16y ago
  The VP is much better, he is a far more strenuous supporter of US interests in the war on terrorism and for stability in the middle east. (ie. still hungry for more consultancy payments)
- roc 16y ago
  The Egyptian people already rejected the transparent figure-head proposal (the "I won't run for re-election" promise). I don't think anyone expects them to accept anything that doesn't carry the promise of a free and fair election. That said, the Vice President came up through the military which, as we've been told, is very well-respected. I don't see any reason why the people would distrust what would essentially be an Egyptian Military stewardship. Perhaps they should be wary of that. And perhaps they will be. But it seems reasonable to expect they'd be willing to give it a shot. The military has done right by them thus far.
  - wolfrom 16y ago
    Don't forget that Mubarak was just an air force officer who was Sadat's vice president. It's hard not to think of this as a repeat of past successions. I haven't read whether Suleiman would stand for re-election in Sept.
    - roc 16y ago
      I absolutely agree. But what other reasonable choice do the Egyptian people truly have? At some point, a purge of Mubarak's government will just leave you with no-one who knows how to keep the government running sufficiently to even hold orderly elections. And I certainly wouldn't expect the Egyptians to trust a western stabilizing/interim governmental force moreso than their own military. We were partners to Mubarak's tyranny.
jcsalterego 16y ago
I'm seeing this everywhere else on my internets, but I will have to play the "OT for HN" card.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  Civil rights issues are hacker issues. Even if they're not in your country.
  - jcsalterego 16y ago
    I concede to your first point. Not sure where the second part is coming from.
    - JonnieCache 16y ago
      What I meant was, that if this was happening in the US or a european country where most HNers live, then the relevance of the civil rights issues might be seen as more immediate. This was more aimed at the community in general, "you" was meant to refer to the reader. Obviously I don't know where you (jcsalterego) live. Sorry for not being more clear.
      - jcsalterego 16y ago
        Cheers for the clarification.
  - knowledgesale 16y ago
    These are not news on civil rights. One politician stepped down and made his vice an incumbent. No evidence of change in the system at the moment. There is a long way from stepping down of one person who is a symbol of corruption to a democratic or just more liberal society (e.g. look at the ex-USSR countries).
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    I don't go to CNN/NYT/BBC for hacker news. I don't go to Hacker News for world/political news. I don't go to McDonald's for steak and I don't go to Disneyland to check out a library book. All other websites and media channels are just a click away so put me down on the side of thinking a front page link about the Egypt situation is OT and inefficient for HN. If not, let's take it to the logical extreme and start submitting pictures of pretty ponies. Hackers can find pretty ponies interesting.
benwerd 16y ago
Hooray! Mubarak to concede power to his vice president, who has said that Egypt isn't ready for democracy, effectively deflating the protesters' demands while changing pretty much nothing, and leaving the door open to come down harshly on dissenters once the eyes of the world have moved elsewhere. That's great! Seriously, this strikes me as propaganda of the worst kind. All of us here are in the business of making things better - the promise of the web is all about democratization and equalizing hierarchies. What can we do to help, both here and elsewhere?
- barrkel 16y ago
  Odd feature of Egypt constitution, as far as I'm aware: if the president resigns, power falls to the speaker of the parliament, not the vice president. E.g.: http://www.eipr.org/en/pressrelease/2011/02/05/1091 http://www.eipr.org/en/pressrelease/2011/02/05/1091
  - learner4life 16y ago
    Remember though, the country is in a state of emergency (As it has been for the last 30 years). I am not sure those rules apply in a state of emergency.
  - afterburner 16y ago
    I think in Egypt what happens is largely a matter of what the army lets happen.
- Unseelie 16y ago
  To help: Education. We're sitting on the best tool for disseminating information ever created, and things get better when people are educated. If they can do math, they can better run businesses. If they know history, they know politics. If they are taught marketing, they understand propaganda. The best way anyone in the world can help make the world a better place is by providing education to as many people as possible.
- ugh 16y ago
  You are assuming that the current Egyptian leadership is a single actor, executing a single plan. You are assuming that all the interests are aligned, even after all the pressure, the cracks, the jumbling. Considering the situation in Egypt, that doesn’t seem to be the case. This is far from over.
lionhearted 16y ago
True story, three nights ago at a bar in Saigon: Friend of mine: Mubarak is sharp. That motherfucker has been hated for a long time, but is still in power... he'll weather this, he'll still be running the country next year. Me: I don't know dude, the city is literally on fire. Has any revolution ever hit this point and had the leader keep control? Him: They're rioting. It'll get settled out. Besides, Mubarak's got the military. Me: Does he? Really? Him: Well, if you think he'll be out of power, put your money where your mouth is. 100 bucks says, Mubarak is still in power at the end of this year. Me: I don't know dude, I guess I don't know as much about this as you do... Him: I don't know much. But I think he's got it. What do you say, 100 bucks? Me: Well, what's "in power"? Him: He's still got the title President on December 31st. Me: In Egypt, not in exile? Him: In Egypt. He's still president, and in Egypt. Me: And no foreign occupying army stabilizing - no U.N. peacekeepers or transition force. Him: That wouldn't happen, America has the securi -- okay, fine, yes, no foreign forces. So the wager is - Mubarak has the title of President on December 31st, is in Egypt, and there's no foreign troops occupying. Me: Okay, I'm going to go with history here. You can break riots earlier, but once they hit this point it's over... Him: We'll see. I want that hundred bucks in December. Me: I'm good for it. You're on. We shook on it. I'll take him out to a nice dinner with some of the money.
- oconnor0 16y ago
  If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win?
  - lionhearted 16y ago
    > If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win? If he's got the title of President, there's no foreign troops stabilizing (that's the only way I could see Mubarak keeping power - if the U.N. sent peacekeepers or something), and he's in Egypt, then I suppose so yes.
    - fuzzythinker 16y ago
      You may have to hold on for the dinner treat til Dec'12 then.
goatforce5 16y ago
The AP is saying there might be a military coup in progress: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-02-10-11-23-18 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&... It seems as thought Mubarak is being pushed aside tonight (indeed, if I play connect the dots it looks like Mubarak is trying to flee and the army is trying to make sure he can't). Looks like there's more than one party who could take power over the next few hours. Whether they can hold on to that is another question entirely.
eibrahim 16y ago
What a proud moment for Egypt and all Egyptians? I didn't think I will see a revolution in my lifetime but here we are watching one unfold in front of our own eyes. This is what wikipedia says about the french revolutions - sounds very similar - doesn't it. Except egyptians did it in 2 weeks and not 3 years. "The French Revolution was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from liberal political groups and the masses on the streets. Old ideas about hierarchy and tradition succumbed to new Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights."
- philwelch 16y ago
  You left out the part where Robespierre appointed himself executioner and had hundreds of people publicly beheaded for no good reason. Shortly afterwards, every institution in France, other than the military, collapsed and Napoleon invented the modern dictatorship and failed to conquer Europe. I guess I'm saying, I hope the Egyptian revolution doesn't end up being as messy.
- steve19 16y ago
  Wikipedia lists over 40 revolutions in the 20th century[0] and 10 in the 21st[1]. This was not the first nor will be the last that happen in your lifetime. I admire your optimism, but in my humble option unlike the French revolution, in which they eventually managed to rid themselves of dictators and obtain democracy, so far the Egyptians have only managed to throw out one dictator to be replaced by another (or maybe a military council). I hope the Egyptians keep up the momentum and one day soon have free and fair elections. Until then I fear it will just be business as usual for the corrupt and powerful. --- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_revolutio... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:21st-century_revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:21st-century_revolutio... EDIT: Formatting.
  - eru 16y ago
tantalor 16y ago
USA Today? Really? How about, AP http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ipbX3bCpn86FnnmH_l6_aK_g1O1A?docId=7f6e9f0d9abf468ea72c6588f82e2f2b http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ipbX3bCpn8... WP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/10/AR2011021003134.html?hpid=topnews http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02... WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110210-713568.html http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110210-713568.html NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/world/middleeast/11egypt.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/world/middleeast/11egypt.h... BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12421000 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12421000
- 2mur 16y ago
  But in his defense, as of 1224 EST the AP link reads: CIA Director Peon Panetta says U.S. intelligence indicates that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is on his way out. Which is amusing.
- JonnieCache 16y ago
  Let's not forget TG: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/10/egypt-middleeast http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/10/egypt-middl... They have very good liveblogs that collate a wide variety of sources.
- shortlived 16y ago
  Sorry, sorry. I wanted to be first with a story for once in my life. I agree there are much better sources, this is just the first one I read.
  - therealarmen 16y ago
    you did it!
  - therealarmen 16y ago
    you did it!
giberson 16y ago
It occurs to me, that this information may be a coup. Imagine that Mubarak's original intention to address the protesters tonight was to propose some compromise other than his immediate stepping down. An opposing party could use the opportunity to force a step down. According to the USA today article, the military addressed the people "all of your demands will be met tonight". Was this really the instruction of Mubarak to the military? Or could it be the instruction coming from the opposition. By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen tonight a strategic coup could be set. Because tonight, if Mubarak doesn't step down, because of the expectation, it would stir the protester's riot past the boiling point. It would force the riots to the next stage of civil decent requiring military action against or for the people. At that point, absolutely the only way to appease the riots would be the forced removal of Mubarak. It would be certainly interesting if that were really the case, and Mubarak now faced the realization that despite it not being originally his intent tonight--must step down from position.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- eru 16y ago
  > By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen [...] Confer the stepping down of the Germany Kaiser after WWI.
  - giberson 16y ago
    I'm having trouble sifting through the wiki info regarding the German revolution to find similarities I think you might be pointing out. Could you cliff note what your referring to?
    - eru 16y ago
      Basically, the German emperor did not decide to abdicate himself, but somebody else created the expectation, that he then followed. From "Wilhelm II, German Emperor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Kaiser#Abdication_and_flight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Kaiser#Abdic...): "After the outbreak of the German Revolution, Wilhelm could not make up his mind whether or not to abdicate. Up to that point, he was confident that even if he were obliged to vacate the German throne, he would still retain the Prussian kingship. The unreality of this belief was revealed when, for the sake of preserving some form of government in the face of anarchy, Wilhelm's abdication both as German Emperor and King of Prussia was abruptly announced by the Chancellor, Prince Max of Baden, on 9 November 1918. (Prince Max himself was forced to resign later the same day, when it became clear that only Friedrich Ebert, leader of the SPD could effectively exert control.)"
callmevlad 16y ago
Based on the number of mentions of the "concerns of the Muslim Brotherhood", it seems likely that the Egyptian people are either in for a) military rule or b) a religious theocracy. I'm hoping for c) a true democracy, but the track record on that is pretty bad in the Middle East.
marze 16y ago
Are the Egyptian people really stupid enough to be happy the former head of the notorious secret police is taking over as president? Unless I've really missed something, this makes little sense.
patr1ck 16y ago
YouTube / Al Jazeera has live video here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish Pretty amazing stuff.
jim_h 16y ago
Reuters just said that president is not stepping down. He is just transferring power. Saw this on Al Jazeera, but no source/link yet.
- jim_h 16y ago
  Watching the speech now. He's not stepping down. (Speech not done yet.)
kprobst 16y ago
He's speaking now on TV over there and the BBC says he'll stay in power until elections in September, which is basically the same thing the protesters were offered before.
d3fun 16y ago
as per the latest new he is not resigning http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22309266;_ylt=AlFEJ8fEDCUYcBvlts1Dtgys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTE4Nmg1OTlsBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9icmVha2luZ19uZXdzBHNsawN3YXRjaGxpdmU- http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22309266;_ylt=AlFEJ8...
barredo 16y ago
Well, he didn't
- barredo 16y ago
  No he did!
axod 16y ago
There's no escape from politics. Even on HN.
zeteo 16y ago
Sensationalism and an unverified story, in the rush to grab attention at any cost. Kind of typical for today's mass media.
NY_USA_Hacker 16y ago
Let's see, the headline is: "Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections" and the article has: "Hundreds of thousands of protesters respond to Mubarak's speech with 'get out, get out!'" So, Egypt is a country with some tens of millions of people, and some "hundreds of thousands" are unhappy. Also, Mubarak has been in office for a long time and, thus, passed whatever process Egypt has for picking a 'legitimate' government. And, the "protesters" apparently are claiming mostly just that they don't like what Mubarak has been doing and not that the government he heads is not legitimate. So, in a country of some tens of millions of people, "hundreds of thousands" are trying to bring down a legitimate government and replace it with, what? Anything more legitimate or less? And of the "hundreds of thousands of protesters", their process of changing a government is some tiny fraction of the population "shouting" in a public square? So, in the headline: "Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections" with "defiant" and "vows", the suggestion is that Mubarak is doing something wrong. Then am I the only one here who concludes that the article is being irresponsible and trying to create violence, maybe Egypt with some tens of millions of people without a clearly legitimate government and, thus, a good chance of a long, bloody, civil war that also disrupts the world including the US economy? It very much looks like Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY wants a war, in particular a religious war, with Jihading Muslims, that might kill some millions of people in Egypt, might spread from Casablanca east to Afghanistan and on through South and South East Asia, might kill some tens of millions of people, might so seriously disrupt the world economy, say, about little things like oil, that we could have WWIII and kill nearly everyone? So, my understanding is that Mubarak's term is up in September. Then to preserve their process of selecting a government, definitely Mubarak should stay in office and try to do what he was selected to do until September, and apparently that is what Mubarak just announced he will do. I'd say he did the 'statesman' like thing. For Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY apparently he's just a 'newsie' and a brain-dead, disconnected, clueless, irresponsible, blood thirsty one at that. Maybe he wants a "scoop"; someone please rush down to Petco and get the brain-dead newsie a "scoop", hopefully used.
- colanderman 16y ago
  At the risk of feeding a troll... If 1% of the population ticked the "displeased with Mubarak" checkbox on a poll, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But since 1% of the population is IN THE STREETS RIOTING, effectively setting aside their normal lives and risking even death, you can bet that a hell of a lot more are significantly displeased and are too scared/old/otherwise incapable of taking the risks there people are taking. Furthermore you're being very disingenuous by quoting the population of Egypt as a whole, and comparing this to the numer of protesters in ONE CITY.

249 points by shortlived 16y ago

"Demands will be met", "Mubarak will meet with the people". Hopeful! But the headline should be "Mubarak may step down tonight"

tobych 16y ago
Or as the BBC news website currently has it: Egypt's Mubarak 'may stand down'
eru 16y ago
Al-Jazeera has "Hosni Mubarak 'may step down'" (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/20112101653445426.html http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011210...).

cma 16y ago

The vice president that will take over was trained in Fort Bragg, NC. He has been the head of the Egyptian side of the "extraordinary rendition" joint-US torture program. If you want some scale for the corruption going on in Egypt, look into why Mubarak is wealthier than Bill Gates.

iuygtfrikuj 16y ago
From consultancy payments from US defense suppliers?
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
DanI-S 16y ago
We shouldn't draw some arbitrary border around Egypt's corruption. Our governments directly benefited from it; we're all implicit in it. Western support of regimes like this /has/ to end.
- cma 16y ago
  I am aware and I agree; I wasn't drawing a border.
  - DanI-S 16y ago
    I guess I was just responding to "the corruption going on in Egypt". I didn't mean to indicate you in particular, apologies if it comes across that way.
- erikpukinskis 16y ago
  complicit
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
jsm386 16y ago
The 70 billion dollar figure was based on pure speculation. FWIW, US gov is estimating closer to 2 billion http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/10/6024993-mubarak-egypts-2-billion-man http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/10/6024993-muba...
- mkr-hn 16y ago
  The number isn't too important past a certain point. He's going to live a comfortable life wherever he goes.
  - eru 16y ago
    From a material point of view.
  - goatforce5 16y ago
    ...assuming he makes it out.
DevX101 16y ago
For the curious, it's been estimated that Mubarak's wealth stands between 40 - 70 billion dollars. This number seems shaky to me, but according to US officials he's worth at least 2 billion. No one knows for sure, and he has distributed it amongst his family, but it is all but certain he's keeping that money. How did he get so rich? Well if you have a major business and you would like to expand into Egypt, the law requires 51% Egyptian ownership. I'm not privy to the investment ownership of companies based in Egypt, but its a pretty good bet that Mubarak enforced a pay to play scheme to major and minor corporations.
fdsafsdf 16y ago
Egypt is a military ally of the US and it sends its generals for training there. Other allies of the US do so as well (for example: Israel's prime minister and minister of defence have also studied in America). Suleiman was the head of intelligence, and thus responsible for all intelligence programs that Egypt had with America. Why would you single out the rendition program? For some reason, you're pulling two questionably relevant facts from his biography and present them with a conspiratorial tone.
- cma 16y ago
  >his biography I was talking about two different people in my comment.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Managing intelligence programs isn't necessarily a problem. The real issue is that Sulemain was actively involved in torturing people for the US government. This isn't some nutty conspiracy: it has been reported extensively. For example, see Jane Mayer's book The Dark Side (Mayer is a journalist at the New Yorker and before that the Wall Street Journal). The fact that Sulemain has been so deeply complicit in torture for the US government suggests that he's likely to keep power and US backing. The fact that Mubarak's hand picked replacement is directly responsible for torturing many people on behalf of the US government seems pretty damn relevant to just about everything.
_delirium 16y ago
This is interesting if true, from the BBC liveblog: Sources close to the army tell the BBC’s Christian Fraser in Cairo that the military stepped in to stop the president handing power to his second in command Omar Suleiman.

warfangle 16y ago

There's more detail over on Al Jazeera English: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/10/live-blog-feb-10-egypt-protests http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/10/live-blog-...

losvedir 16y ago
The live blog is excellent for getting a sense of what's been happening, seeing the story unfold. Youtube is broadcasting Aljazeera English live here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish?feature=ticker . Mubarak was supposed to speak at 10pm Egypt time (40 mins ago), but hasn't yet. I wonder when he will and what he'll say. I encourage everyone to find a live feed of what's going on over there (e.g. the youtube link above) and follow along. History in the making, perhaps?

torme 16y ago

Is this really any different? They're just instating the VP instead, who I imagine is probably not much better. This might make sense if they're planning to hold another election shortly thereafter. That way, at least the figurehead is out of office, and there's the potential for a peaceful transition for a replacement. Given the level of corruption though, is that even a possibility?

iuygtfrikuj 16y ago
The VP is much better, he is a far more strenuous supporter of US interests in the war on terrorism and for stability in the middle east. (ie. still hungry for more consultancy payments)
roc 16y ago
The Egyptian people already rejected the transparent figure-head proposal (the "I won't run for re-election" promise). I don't think anyone expects them to accept anything that doesn't carry the promise of a free and fair election. That said, the Vice President came up through the military which, as we've been told, is very well-respected. I don't see any reason why the people would distrust what would essentially be an Egyptian Military stewardship. Perhaps they should be wary of that. And perhaps they will be. But it seems reasonable to expect they'd be willing to give it a shot. The military has done right by them thus far.
- wolfrom 16y ago
  Don't forget that Mubarak was just an air force officer who was Sadat's vice president. It's hard not to think of this as a repeat of past successions. I haven't read whether Suleiman would stand for re-election in Sept.
  - roc 16y ago
    I absolutely agree. But what other reasonable choice do the Egyptian people truly have? At some point, a purge of Mubarak's government will just leave you with no-one who knows how to keep the government running sufficiently to even hold orderly elections. And I certainly wouldn't expect the Egyptians to trust a western stabilizing/interim governmental force moreso than their own military. We were partners to Mubarak's tyranny.

jcsalterego 16y ago

I'm seeing this everywhere else on my internets, but I will have to play the "OT for HN" card.

JonnieCache 16y ago
Civil rights issues are hacker issues. Even if they're not in your country.
- jcsalterego 16y ago
  I concede to your first point. Not sure where the second part is coming from.
  - JonnieCache 16y ago
    What I meant was, that if this was happening in the US or a european country where most HNers live, then the relevance of the civil rights issues might be seen as more immediate. This was more aimed at the community in general, "you" was meant to refer to the reader. Obviously I don't know where you (jcsalterego) live. Sorry for not being more clear.
    - jcsalterego 16y ago
      Cheers for the clarification.
- knowledgesale 16y ago
  These are not news on civil rights. One politician stepped down and made his vice an incumbent. No evidence of change in the system at the moment. There is a long way from stepping down of one person who is a symbol of corruption to a democratic or just more liberal society (e.g. look at the ex-USSR countries).
- mkramlich 16y ago
  I don't go to CNN/NYT/BBC for hacker news. I don't go to Hacker News for world/political news. I don't go to McDonald's for steak and I don't go to Disneyland to check out a library book. All other websites and media channels are just a click away so put me down on the side of thinking a front page link about the Egypt situation is OT and inefficient for HN. If not, let's take it to the logical extreme and start submitting pictures of pretty ponies. Hackers can find pretty ponies interesting.

benwerd 16y ago

Hooray! Mubarak to concede power to his vice president, who has said that Egypt isn't ready for democracy, effectively deflating the protesters' demands while changing pretty much nothing, and leaving the door open to come down harshly on dissenters once the eyes of the world have moved elsewhere. That's great! Seriously, this strikes me as propaganda of the worst kind. All of us here are in the business of making things better - the promise of the web is all about democratization and equalizing hierarchies. What can we do to help, both here and elsewhere?

barrkel 16y ago
Odd feature of Egypt constitution, as far as I'm aware: if the president resigns, power falls to the speaker of the parliament, not the vice president. E.g.: http://www.eipr.org/en/pressrelease/2011/02/05/1091 http://www.eipr.org/en/pressrelease/2011/02/05/1091
- learner4life 16y ago
  Remember though, the country is in a state of emergency (As it has been for the last 30 years). I am not sure those rules apply in a state of emergency.
- afterburner 16y ago
  I think in Egypt what happens is largely a matter of what the army lets happen.
Unseelie 16y ago
To help: Education. We're sitting on the best tool for disseminating information ever created, and things get better when people are educated. If they can do math, they can better run businesses. If they know history, they know politics. If they are taught marketing, they understand propaganda. The best way anyone in the world can help make the world a better place is by providing education to as many people as possible.
ugh 16y ago
You are assuming that the current Egyptian leadership is a single actor, executing a single plan. You are assuming that all the interests are aligned, even after all the pressure, the cracks, the jumbling. Considering the situation in Egypt, that doesn’t seem to be the case. This is far from over.

lionhearted 16y ago

True story, three nights ago at a bar in Saigon: Friend of mine: Mubarak is sharp. That motherfucker has been hated for a long time, but is still in power... he'll weather this, he'll still be running the country next year. Me: I don't know dude, the city is literally on fire. Has any revolution ever hit this point and had the leader keep control? Him: They're rioting. It'll get settled out. Besides, Mubarak's got the military. Me: Does he? Really? Him: Well, if you think he'll be out of power, put your money where your mouth is. 100 bucks says, Mubarak is still in power at the end of this year. Me: I don't know dude, I guess I don't know as much about this as you do... Him: I don't know much. But I think he's got it. What do you say, 100 bucks? Me: Well, what's "in power"? Him: He's still got the title President on December 31st. Me: In Egypt, not in exile? Him: In Egypt. He's still president, and in Egypt. Me: And no foreign occupying army stabilizing - no U.N. peacekeepers or transition force. Him: That wouldn't happen, America has the securi -- okay, fine, yes, no foreign forces. So the wager is - Mubarak has the title of President on December 31st, is in Egypt, and there's no foreign troops occupying. Me: Okay, I'm going to go with history here. You can break riots earlier, but once they hit this point it's over... Him: We'll see. I want that hundred bucks in December. Me: I'm good for it. You're on. We shook on it. I'll take him out to a nice dinner with some of the money.

oconnor0 16y ago
If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win?
- lionhearted 16y ago
  > If Mubarak returns to power before the end of the year does your friend win? If he's got the title of President, there's no foreign troops stabilizing (that's the only way I could see Mubarak keeping power - if the U.N. sent peacekeepers or something), and he's in Egypt, then I suppose so yes.
  - fuzzythinker 16y ago
    You may have to hold on for the dinner treat til Dec'12 then.

goatforce5 16y ago

The AP is saying there might be a military coup in progress: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-02-10-11-23-18 http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_EGYPT?SITE=AP&... It seems as thought Mubarak is being pushed aside tonight (indeed, if I play connect the dots it looks like Mubarak is trying to flee and the army is trying to make sure he can't). Looks like there's more than one party who could take power over the next few hours. Whether they can hold on to that is another question entirely.

eibrahim 16y ago

What a proud moment for Egypt and all Egyptians? I didn't think I will see a revolution in my lifetime but here we are watching one unfold in front of our own eyes. This is what wikipedia says about the french revolutions - sounds very similar - doesn't it. Except egyptians did it in 2 weeks and not 3 years. "The French Revolution was a period of radical social and political upheaval in French and European history. The absolute monarchy that had ruled France for centuries collapsed in three years. French society underwent an epic transformation as feudal, aristocratic and religious privileges evaporated under a sustained assault from liberal political groups and the masses on the streets. Old ideas about hierarchy and tradition succumbed to new Enlightenment principles of citizenship and inalienable rights."

philwelch 16y ago
You left out the part where Robespierre appointed himself executioner and had hundreds of people publicly beheaded for no good reason. Shortly afterwards, every institution in France, other than the military, collapsed and Napoleon invented the modern dictatorship and failed to conquer Europe. I guess I'm saying, I hope the Egyptian revolution doesn't end up being as messy.
steve19 16y ago
Wikipedia lists over 40 revolutions in the 20th century[0] and 10 in the 21st[1]. This was not the first nor will be the last that happen in your lifetime. I admire your optimism, but in my humble option unlike the French revolution, in which they eventually managed to rid themselves of dictators and obtain democracy, so far the Egyptians have only managed to throw out one dictator to be replaced by another (or maybe a military council). I hope the Egyptians keep up the momentum and one day soon have free and fair elections. Until then I fear it will just be business as usual for the corrupt and powerful. --- [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_revolutio... [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:21st-century_revolutions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:21st-century_revolutio... EDIT: Formatting.
- eru 16y ago

tantalor 16y ago

USA Today? Really? How about, AP http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ipbX3bCpn86FnnmH_l6_aK_g1O1A?docId=7f6e9f0d9abf468ea72c6588f82e2f2b http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ipbX3bCpn8... WP http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/10/AR2011021003134.html?hpid=topnews http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02... WSJ http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110210-713568.html http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110210-713568.html NYT http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/world/middleeast/11egypt.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/world/middleeast/11egypt.h... BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12421000 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12421000

2mur 16y ago
But in his defense, as of 1224 EST the AP link reads: CIA Director Peon Panetta says U.S. intelligence indicates that Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is on his way out. Which is amusing.
JonnieCache 16y ago
Let's not forget TG: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/10/egypt-middleeast http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/10/egypt-middl... They have very good liveblogs that collate a wide variety of sources.
shortlived 16y ago
Sorry, sorry. I wanted to be first with a story for once in my life. I agree there are much better sources, this is just the first one I read.
- therealarmen 16y ago
  you did it!
- therealarmen 16y ago
  you did it!

giberson 16y ago

It occurs to me, that this information may be a coup. Imagine that Mubarak's original intention to address the protesters tonight was to propose some compromise other than his immediate stepping down. An opposing party could use the opportunity to force a step down. According to the USA today article, the military addressed the people "all of your demands will be met tonight". Was this really the instruction of Mubarak to the military? Or could it be the instruction coming from the opposition. By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen tonight a strategic coup could be set. Because tonight, if Mubarak doesn't step down, because of the expectation, it would stir the protester's riot past the boiling point. It would force the riots to the next stage of civil decent requiring military action against or for the people. At that point, absolutely the only way to appease the riots would be the forced removal of Mubarak. It would be certainly interesting if that were really the case, and Mubarak now faced the realization that despite it not being originally his intent tonight--must step down from position.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
eru 16y ago
> By spreading a rumor that Mubarak will step down through official channels and generating real expectation for that to happen [...] Confer the stepping down of the Germany Kaiser after WWI.
- giberson 16y ago
  I'm having trouble sifting through the wiki info regarding the German revolution to find similarities I think you might be pointing out. Could you cliff note what your referring to?
  - eru 16y ago
    Basically, the German emperor did not decide to abdicate himself, but somebody else created the expectation, that he then followed. From "Wilhelm II, German Emperor" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Kaiser#Abdication_and_flight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_II,_German_Kaiser#Abdic...): "After the outbreak of the German Revolution, Wilhelm could not make up his mind whether or not to abdicate. Up to that point, he was confident that even if he were obliged to vacate the German throne, he would still retain the Prussian kingship. The unreality of this belief was revealed when, for the sake of preserving some form of government in the face of anarchy, Wilhelm's abdication both as German Emperor and King of Prussia was abruptly announced by the Chancellor, Prince Max of Baden, on 9 November 1918. (Prince Max himself was forced to resign later the same day, when it became clear that only Friedrich Ebert, leader of the SPD could effectively exert control.)"

callmevlad 16y ago

Based on the number of mentions of the "concerns of the Muslim Brotherhood", it seems likely that the Egyptian people are either in for a) military rule or b) a religious theocracy. I'm hoping for c) a true democracy, but the track record on that is pretty bad in the Middle East.

marze 16y ago

Are the Egyptian people really stupid enough to be happy the former head of the notorious secret police is taking over as president? Unless I've really missed something, this makes little sense.

patr1ck 16y ago

YouTube / Al Jazeera has live video here: http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish Pretty amazing stuff.

jim_h 16y ago

Reuters just said that president is not stepping down. He is just transferring power. Saw this on Al Jazeera, but no source/link yet.

jim_h 16y ago
Watching the speech now. He's not stepping down. (Speech not done yet.)

kprobst 16y ago

He's speaking now on TV over there and the BBC says he'll stay in power until elections in September, which is basically the same thing the protesters were offered before.

d3fun 16y ago

as per the latest new he is not resigning http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22309266;_ylt=AlFEJ8fEDCUYcBvlts1Dtgys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTE4Nmg1OTlsBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9icmVha2luZ19uZXdzBHNsawN3YXRjaGxpdmU- http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/22309266;_ylt=AlFEJ8...

barredo 16y ago

Well, he didn't

barredo 16y ago
No he did!

axod 16y ago

There's no escape from politics. Even on HN.

zeteo 16y ago

Sensationalism and an unverified story, in the rush to grab attention at any cost. Kind of typical for today's mass media.

NY_USA_Hacker 16y ago

Let's see, the headline is: "Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections" and the article has: "Hundreds of thousands of protesters respond to Mubarak's speech with 'get out, get out!'" So, Egypt is a country with some tens of millions of people, and some "hundreds of thousands" are unhappy. Also, Mubarak has been in office for a long time and, thus, passed whatever process Egypt has for picking a 'legitimate' government. And, the "protesters" apparently are claiming mostly just that they don't like what Mubarak has been doing and not that the government he heads is not legitimate. So, in a country of some tens of millions of people, "hundreds of thousands" are trying to bring down a legitimate government and replace it with, what? Anything more legitimate or less? And of the "hundreds of thousands of protesters", their process of changing a government is some tiny fraction of the population "shouting" in a public square? So, in the headline: "Defiant Mubarak vows to stay in office until Sept. elections" with "defiant" and "vows", the suggestion is that Mubarak is doing something wrong. Then am I the only one here who concludes that the article is being irresponsible and trying to create violence, maybe Egypt with some tens of millions of people without a clearly legitimate government and, thus, a good chance of a long, bloody, civil war that also disrupts the world including the US economy? It very much looks like Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY wants a war, in particular a religious war, with Jihading Muslims, that might kill some millions of people in Egypt, might spread from Casablanca east to Afghanistan and on through South and South East Asia, might kill some tens of millions of people, might so seriously disrupt the world economy, say, about little things like oil, that we could have WWIII and kill nearly everyone? So, my understanding is that Mubarak's term is up in September. Then to preserve their process of selecting a government, definitely Mubarak should stay in office and try to do what he was selected to do until September, and apparently that is what Mubarak just announced he will do. I'd say he did the 'statesman' like thing. For Douglas Stanglin, USA TODAY apparently he's just a 'newsie' and a brain-dead, disconnected, clueless, irresponsible, blood thirsty one at that. Maybe he wants a "scoop"; someone please rush down to Petco and get the brain-dead newsie a "scoop", hopefully used.

colanderman 16y ago
At the risk of feeding a troll... If 1% of the population ticked the "displeased with Mubarak" checkbox on a poll, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But since 1% of the population is IN THE STREETS RIOTING, effectively setting aside their normal lives and risking even death, you can bet that a hell of a lot more are significantly displeased and are too scared/old/otherwise incapable of taking the risks there people are taking. Furthermore you're being very disingenuous by quoting the population of Egypt as a whole, and comparing this to the numer of protesters in ONE CITY.