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In my view this is a tricky issue. I agree that anti vaxxers are a bad trend. But I think to some degree the medical establishment has brought this onto themsel

In my view this is a tricky issue. I agree that anti vaxxers are a bad trend. But I think to some degree the medical establishment has brought this onto themselves. I remember when things like yoga and meditation came up a lot of doctors just brushed it off as total nonsense. It took a long time for them to catch up. Same for the microbiome. A lot of traditional medicine for a long time has claimed a connection between gut health and general health which most doctors also rejected. Only recently the idea gets some acceptance. If I had a serious disease I would probably also look into alternative treatments (In Addition to the usual options) because I think most doctors have a very narrow view on things. What bugs me for example is the focus on fixing things vs preventing. Doctors should put much more effort into to promoting healthy lifestyles than they do now. In short: I am not surprised that people are skeptical of the usual medical advice. Unfortunately some people take this way too far as the anti vaxxers show.

mmaunder 7y ago
If you had a serious disease that was going to kill you quickly you wouldn't have time to look into alternative treatments. You would take the path of highest success rate, which in case you havent looked at the data, is chemo for many aggressive cancers.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  It’s not always like that. A lot of this stuff goes on for years and several rounds of treatment.
  - mmaunder 7y ago
    Thanks for the insight. Let me tell you about my friend who just got done being treated for advanced leukemia at City of Hope in LA. He would have died quickly and painfully if they didnt hit it hard with chemo. He's in much better shape now and is waiting for a bone marrow transplant. The treatment bought him valuable time and took the pain away. Yeah he will likely be treated until he eventually dies. Are you suggesting he should have instead gone on a juice fast?
    - Ididntdothis 7y ago
      No. I and saying that these treatments often have horrific side effects so it’s no surprise people start liking at other things. I personally would probably do a juice fast or similar and chemo.
      - mmaunder 7y ago
        A juice fast on chemo would kill you. It would throw your electrolytes out of whack and starve your body of protein. The lack of calories would leave you too weak to complete treatment. And cancer loves sugar. So you'd be feeding your tumors while starving your body of what it needs.
      - andai 7y ago
        As the sibling commenter said, cancer loves sugar indeed! Better do a "regular" fast instead -- regular meaning just water, but also meaning often. Autophagy (the [sub-]cellular janitor) kicks in after 24h* fasting and recycles and repairs old and damaged cells. And better to do it to maintain / optimize health now. Why wait? * I've heard plenty of benefits fasting 24-48h, but going longer than that I don't think justifies the risk. -- To a lesser degree you can get the same benefits with fasting's little brother, Time Restricted Eating (these days called Intermittent Fasting) where you eat only during an 8 hour window. Less autophagy but you will get some lowered inflammation which is great too (inflammation found to cause many mental as well as physical illnesses).
        mmaunder 7y ago
        I'm going go assume you're not providing medical advice to cancer patients to fast during chemo. That would be... insane. If you have cancer, talk to your oncology team including doc, nurses and nutritionist that they will provide. However... as a stage 4 survivor who fucked up my cancer with 18 weeks of chemo, lots of healthy eating, exercise and an amazing support system.... I currently practice intermittent fasting in a 16/8 cycle. I only drink black coffee and water during a fast 8pm to noon. I've found it has improved my energy levels (which were already awesome) and mental acuity. And consequently my productivity and appetite to take on more work. So yeah, post chemo I'm a fan. But I only tried this years later and after my body had healed up. And yoga. Which is amazing. Every day.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  Or the path of any success rate. Yoga won't help you one bit if your apendix is about to burst. Acupuncture has never set a broken bone or de-clothed a crainial artery to relieve a stroke. Scientific medicine is a mirical we should all appreciate every day. Without it, half the people reading this probably wouldn't be here.
  - papermachete 7y ago
    Dude medicine has a failure rate as well, it's nothing that interesting. It's clouded in economics and politics, meaning it will never be truly altruistic. It's not much different from thinking software is a miracle. Human error is a leading cause of death in the West.
    - mmaunder 7y ago
      Ever even spoken to an oncology nurse or doctor? They are drenched in altruism. You have no idea what you're talking about. Dude.
    - threatofrain 7y ago
      Neither selfishness nor selflessness need be that pure.
  - andai 7y ago
    Can confirm, was born dead and had to be zapped back to life.
    - mmaunder 7y ago
      Welcome back buddy! Need more people in this thread who arent cigar smoking on their balcony telling doctors to get off their lawn. People who have actually stared into the abyss and been pulled back by the awesomeness that is modern medicine.
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    Totally agree. Modern medicine is a miracle. But it’s also not the solution to everything. When I taught yoga classes I saw quite a few people who had had multiple failed surgeries for back, knee and other problems. They got their problems under control by doing some simple exercises and more awareness of their movement patterns. This can’t be denied either.
- masonic 7y ago
  But not everybody does, including otherwise intelligent people like Steve Jobs and Steve McQueen.
generalpass 7y ago
> If I had a serious disease I would probably also look into alternative treatments (In Addition to the usual options) because I think most doctors have a very narrow view on things. What bugs me for example is the focus on fixing things vs preventing. Doctors should put much more effort into to promoting healthy lifestyles than they do now. My understanding is that doctors receive zero nutrition training, including ones that graduate from Harvard. How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  But somehow they still claim to be the guardians of our health.
- mmaunder 7y ago
  Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. But hey, that jump you took to that conclusion was spectacular. You missed your calling. "How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?" This thread is unbelievable. Have all the rational people left HN?
  - generalpass 7y ago
    > Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. > But hey, that jump you took to that conclusion was spectacular. You missed your calling. > "How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?" > This thread is unbelievable. Have all the rational people left HN? I stated doctors receive zero nutrition training. And thanks for the personal insult.
  - tzs 7y ago
    > Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. I fail to see how that addresses his claim that doctors do not retrieve nutrition training. I did a bit of Googling. It looks like most doctors probably do receive some nutrition training, but not much, and even that seems to focus more on biochemistry than diets and food choice. Some results: > Despite the connection between poor diet and many preventable diseases, only about one-fifth of American medical schools require students to take a nutrition course, according to David Eisenberg, adjunct associate professor of nutrition at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health ... > “Today, most medical schools in the United States teach less than 25 hours of nutrition over four years. The fact that less than 20 percent of medical schools have a single required course in nutrition, it’s a scandal. It’s outrageous. It’s obscene,” Eisenberg told NewsHour. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-nutrition-education/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-n... > Part of the problem stems from the fact that doctors don’t know how to provide information beyond the basics. > Inadequate instruction during medical school, residency and other additional training is a primary reason for this dearth of expertise, according to an American Heart Association science advisory published Monday in the journal Circulation(link opens in new window) that looked at gaps in nutrition education over the decades. https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/05/03/how-much-does-your-doctor-actually-know-about-nutrition https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/05/03/how-much-does-your-... > Modern medicine maintains the importance of proper nutrition, yet on average, U.S. medical schools only offer 19.6 hours of nutrition education across four years of medical education, according to the perspective authors. “This corresponds to less than 1 percent of estimated total lecture hours,” they wrote. “Moreover, the majority of this educational content relates to biochemistry, not diets or practical, food-related decision making.” https://www.ama-assn.org/education/accelerating-change-medical-education/whats-stake-nutrition-education-during-med-school https://www.ama-assn.org/education/accelerating-change-medic... > A total of 106 surveys were returned for a response rate of 84%. Ninety-nine of the 106 schools responding required some form of nutrition education; however, only 32 schools (30%) required a separate nutrition course. On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during medical school (range: 2–70 h). Only 40 schools required the minimum 25 h recommended by the National Academy of Sciences. Most instructors (88%) expressed the need for additional nutrition instruction at their institutions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/
alexfromapex 7y ago
Yeah unfortunately a portion of the medical community has drifted away from treating root causes to palliative care for the sake of profits and revenue which leads to distrust and rightfully so.

mmaunder 7y ago

If you had a serious disease that was going to kill you quickly you wouldn't have time to look into alternative treatments. You would take the path of highest success rate, which in case you havent looked at the data, is chemo for many aggressive cancers.

Ididntdothis 7y ago
It’s not always like that. A lot of this stuff goes on for years and several rounds of treatment.
- mmaunder 7y ago
  Thanks for the insight. Let me tell you about my friend who just got done being treated for advanced leukemia at City of Hope in LA. He would have died quickly and painfully if they didnt hit it hard with chemo. He's in much better shape now and is waiting for a bone marrow transplant. The treatment bought him valuable time and took the pain away. Yeah he will likely be treated until he eventually dies. Are you suggesting he should have instead gone on a juice fast?
  - Ididntdothis 7y ago
    No. I and saying that these treatments often have horrific side effects so it’s no surprise people start liking at other things. I personally would probably do a juice fast or similar and chemo.
    - mmaunder 7y ago
      A juice fast on chemo would kill you. It would throw your electrolytes out of whack and starve your body of protein. The lack of calories would leave you too weak to complete treatment. And cancer loves sugar. So you'd be feeding your tumors while starving your body of what it needs.
    - andai 7y ago
      As the sibling commenter said, cancer loves sugar indeed! Better do a "regular" fast instead -- regular meaning just water, but also meaning often. Autophagy (the [sub-]cellular janitor) kicks in after 24h* fasting and recycles and repairs old and damaged cells. And better to do it to maintain / optimize health now. Why wait? * I've heard plenty of benefits fasting 24-48h, but going longer than that I don't think justifies the risk. -- To a lesser degree you can get the same benefits with fasting's little brother, Time Restricted Eating (these days called Intermittent Fasting) where you eat only during an 8 hour window. Less autophagy but you will get some lowered inflammation which is great too (inflammation found to cause many mental as well as physical illnesses).
      - mmaunder 7y ago
        I'm going go assume you're not providing medical advice to cancer patients to fast during chemo. That would be... insane. If you have cancer, talk to your oncology team including doc, nurses and nutritionist that they will provide. However... as a stage 4 survivor who fucked up my cancer with 18 weeks of chemo, lots of healthy eating, exercise and an amazing support system.... I currently practice intermittent fasting in a 16/8 cycle. I only drink black coffee and water during a fast 8pm to noon. I've found it has improved my energy levels (which were already awesome) and mental acuity. And consequently my productivity and appetite to take on more work. So yeah, post chemo I'm a fan. But I only tried this years later and after my body had healed up. And yoga. Which is amazing. Every day.
sandworm101 7y ago
Or the path of any success rate. Yoga won't help you one bit if your apendix is about to burst. Acupuncture has never set a broken bone or de-clothed a crainial artery to relieve a stroke. Scientific medicine is a mirical we should all appreciate every day. Without it, half the people reading this probably wouldn't be here.
- papermachete 7y ago
  Dude medicine has a failure rate as well, it's nothing that interesting. It's clouded in economics and politics, meaning it will never be truly altruistic. It's not much different from thinking software is a miracle. Human error is a leading cause of death in the West.
  - mmaunder 7y ago
    Ever even spoken to an oncology nurse or doctor? They are drenched in altruism. You have no idea what you're talking about. Dude.
  - threatofrain 7y ago
    Neither selfishness nor selflessness need be that pure.
- andai 7y ago
  Can confirm, was born dead and had to be zapped back to life.
  - mmaunder 7y ago
    Welcome back buddy! Need more people in this thread who arent cigar smoking on their balcony telling doctors to get off their lawn. People who have actually stared into the abyss and been pulled back by the awesomeness that is modern medicine.
- Ididntdothis 7y ago
  Totally agree. Modern medicine is a miracle. But it’s also not the solution to everything. When I taught yoga classes I saw quite a few people who had had multiple failed surgeries for back, knee and other problems. They got their problems under control by doing some simple exercises and more awareness of their movement patterns. This can’t be denied either.
masonic 7y ago
But not everybody does, including otherwise intelligent people like Steve Jobs and Steve McQueen.

generalpass 7y ago

> If I had a serious disease I would probably also look into alternative treatments (In Addition to the usual options) because I think most doctors have a very narrow view on things. What bugs me for example is the focus on fixing things vs preventing. Doctors should put much more effort into to promoting healthy lifestyles than they do now. My understanding is that doctors receive zero nutrition training, including ones that graduate from Harvard. How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?

Ididntdothis 7y ago
But somehow they still claim to be the guardians of our health.
mmaunder 7y ago
Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. But hey, that jump you took to that conclusion was spectacular. You missed your calling. "How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?" This thread is unbelievable. Have all the rational people left HN?
- generalpass 7y ago
  > Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. > But hey, that jump you took to that conclusion was spectacular. You missed your calling. > "How they can the be the ones we look to for preventing illness, when they don't even have a baseline understanding of nutrition?" > This thread is unbelievable. Have all the rational people left HN? I stated doctors receive zero nutrition training. And thanks for the personal insult.
- tzs 7y ago
  > Well your understanding is wrong. Both SCCA (Fred Hutch in Seattle) and City of Hope in Los Angeles have dedicated nutritionists on staff that advise patients on diet for best outcome. I fail to see how that addresses his claim that doctors do not retrieve nutrition training. I did a bit of Googling. It looks like most doctors probably do receive some nutrition training, but not much, and even that seems to focus more on biochemistry than diets and food choice. Some results: > Despite the connection between poor diet and many preventable diseases, only about one-fifth of American medical schools require students to take a nutrition course, according to David Eisenberg, adjunct associate professor of nutrition at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health ... > “Today, most medical schools in the United States teach less than 25 hours of nutrition over four years. The fact that less than 20 percent of medical schools have a single required course in nutrition, it’s a scandal. It’s outrageous. It’s obscene,” Eisenberg told NewsHour. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-nutrition-education/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/doctors-n... > Part of the problem stems from the fact that doctors don’t know how to provide information beyond the basics. > Inadequate instruction during medical school, residency and other additional training is a primary reason for this dearth of expertise, according to an American Heart Association science advisory published Monday in the journal Circulation(link opens in new window) that looked at gaps in nutrition education over the decades. https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/05/03/how-much-does-your-doctor-actually-know-about-nutrition https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/05/03/how-much-does-your-... > Modern medicine maintains the importance of proper nutrition, yet on average, U.S. medical schools only offer 19.6 hours of nutrition education across four years of medical education, according to the perspective authors. “This corresponds to less than 1 percent of estimated total lecture hours,” they wrote. “Moreover, the majority of this educational content relates to biochemistry, not diets or practical, food-related decision making.” https://www.ama-assn.org/education/accelerating-change-medical-education/whats-stake-nutrition-education-during-med-school https://www.ama-assn.org/education/accelerating-change-medic... > A total of 106 surveys were returned for a response rate of 84%. Ninety-nine of the 106 schools responding required some form of nutrition education; however, only 32 schools (30%) required a separate nutrition course. On average, students received 23.9 contact hours of nutrition instruction during medical school (range: 2–70 h). Only 40 schools required the minimum 25 h recommended by the National Academy of Sciences. Most instructors (88%) expressed the need for additional nutrition instruction at their institutions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430660/

alexfromapex 7y ago

Yeah unfortunately a portion of the medical community has drifted away from treating root causes to palliative care for the sake of profits and revenue which leads to distrust and rightfully so.