17 ms·

Paris syndrome

120 points by smacktoward 7y ago

jkuria 7y ago
What do visitors expect Paris to be like? What do they find instead? The article is missing this critical piece of information.
- nyolfen 7y ago
  > Many of the visitors come with a deeply romantic vision of Paris - the cobbled streets, as seen in the film Amelie, the beauty of French women or the high culture and art at the Louvre. > The reality can come as a shock. > An encounter with a rude taxi driver, or a Parisian waiter who shouts at customers who cannot speak fluent French, might be laughed off by those from other Western cultures. > But for the Japanese - used to a more polite and helpful society in which voices are rarely raised in anger - the experience of their dream city turning into a nightmare can simply be too much. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm
- Nightshaxx 7y ago
  It specifically says towards the bottom that in Japanese magazines, they depict Paris as being filled with people so thin they look like stick figures and that only wear high class fashion.
  - tayo42 7y ago
    Idk about high class fashion, but I thought everyone in Paris dressed surprisingly nice. Scarves everywhere lol. Even people wearing sweatpants seemed put together with planned outfits.
- kjlhlwkejthoiu 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris
  - deogeo 7y ago
    > 20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent. Wow - that's a very fast demographic change.
    - narag 7y ago
      Capitals tend to attrack most inmigration. As an anecdote, my son's primary class in Madrid had more than a third of inmigrant parents, including Russia, Iran, South America (most) and Morocco. The question, at least for me, is not where you come from, but how well can you integrate. Latins have it easier because we share the language.
      - douglasmurray12 7y ago
        Not all capitals - it is a question of policy. Tokyo, for instance, seems to be very different.
        narag 7y ago
        Interesting. So in Japan people inmigrate more uniformly? In Spain is just a matter of opportunities. It's easier to find a job in big cities.
        jacobush 7y ago
        Nah, as far as I know there is no such policy: https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-face-of-tokyo-one-in-eight-shinjuku-residents-are-foreign-nationals.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-fac...
        douglasmurray12 7y ago
        12% in the most foreign-populated area still seems very low by European standards. Given that a lot of the foreigners are Chinese and Korean, to the European eye it looks even more homogeneous than that. Seine-Saint-Denis, for comparison, had 27% residents born outside Metropolitan France, and that was in 1999. Marseille is 25% muslim.
- unreal37 7y ago
  I guess it's expected to be self-evident. Expectation of Paris: "the city of light", "the city of love", the home of iconic structures such as the Eiffel Tower, home of fashion, moulin rouge Reality of Paris: construction, traffic, fences, security, getting scammed on the street... a normal city
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    But the food is pretty great.
bsaul 7y ago
let’s be honest. Paris center is really great, but all the rest is trash by any standard (not even the japanese one). And i’m not even talking about suburbs, which people coming from the airport must go through. People are absolutely not what you’d expect french to look like ( and i’m not talking about size), public transport are a total trash, working only half the time correctly.. Restrooms makes us look like a third world country, etc. I could go on and on , but i’ll just sum it up with one anecdote : i spent a month in japan, and this is the first time in my life i felt ashamed of the way we treat tourists in Paris. Food in touristic places is garbage, people are generally rude, etc etc.. My advice if you want to visit paris : rent something nice in the center, and take a cab straight from the aiport, and make the ride by night.
- tristor 7y ago
  I think you're being downvoted for having a negative viewpoint, but what you said is very accurate. I'm not French, but I've spent some time in France and loved it. France is a gorgeous country and people were generally friendly and welcoming, Paris is the exception. There are parts of Paris which are nice, but a significant chunk of the city is exceptionally dreary (partly due to architectural design, heavy use of brutalism, etc), dirty, and many people I encountered in Paris were very rude to me, even before I opened my mouth. I've traveled all over the world, Paris is not anywhere near that bad compared to many places I've been, and generally I enjoy most places I spend time in because there's something positive to be found everywhere. But I wanted to reinforce your viewpoint, because it is not inaccurate, even though I find it to be somewhat one-sided. I don't believe sharing this deserves downvotes, especially in the context of the link.
  - ivanbakel 7y ago
    The OP is probably being down voted for the racist dogwhistle in their comment.
    - notduncansmith 7y ago
      Which part is the racist dogwhistle?
rayiner 7y ago
I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. (I speak a bit of French, and in my experience people were very friendly if you at least tried to communicate in French to begin with.) That said, Parisian bathrooms give me nightmares. The only place outside of Bangladesh where I’ve seen squat toilets.
- pen2l 7y ago
  Squat toilets permit a straighter path for stool to pass through: https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2/j/o0634053614112148113.jpg https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2... Here is a study that confirms this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773 Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I'm level B1, what level would you say you are/how many years of instruction have you got?
  - viscanti 7y ago
    > Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I've found this to be the case too. But their English is almost always better than my French. I've found that attempting French does produce a much more friendly response than just going in an speaking English loudly.
- hollander 7y ago
  You may find squat toilets along the autoroute in resting areas without restaurants and gas station, and maybe at some campings, but I've never seen any in a bar or restaurant, let alone a hotel.
- csomar 7y ago
  > I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. I've had extremes. Either very rude, or unreasonably nice and friendly. Paris has 10 million people around, so there must be some very good people. But the average guy you'll hit on the street is probably going to be a mediocre experience.
xorand 7y ago
Paris is a big city, that's all. The Eiffel Tower and Moulin Rouge are not among the most interesting things to see in Paris. People are not like in a Disney movie.
_Wintermute 7y ago
I've lived in a few big cities but Paris definitely is very different to the others. There are moments when it's like the depictions in the films: quiet boulevards lined with Haussmann apartments sitting ontop of quaint boulangeries. I think this is why it's such a shock when you're faced with the rest of it which is dirty, smelly, noisy, home to 10 million people filled with scam artists and impatient Parisians.
- hodgesrm 7y ago
  Paris reminds me a lot of San Francisco. Both have world class neighborhoods but also areas that are pretty awful (homelessness, crime, trash, etc.) Personally I find Paris very similar to navigate. The not-do-good parts do not seem much different from the Tenderloin in SF and require the same attention to surroundings.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    I’ve also lived in SF and believe me, the problem is entirely different. It’s just a different scale. We’re not talking about having « diverse neighborhoods » or « sketchy neighborhoods » ( it’s part of the fun of living in a big city). Actually i’ve lived a huge part of my life in those neighborhoods, and criminality isn’t such a big problem (although things are very very different if you’re a girl). The most pressing matter for the country is the cultural gap between very large parts of the whole french population (not just a district or a city). The country is currently facing an identity crisis and the fact that overtly racists political parties are close to winning every election should be a sign that something’s going really bad there. Unfortunately the debate is completely crippled by people who refuse to address the issue like grown ups ( either by calling everyone a racist, or by actually being racist)
endorphone 7y ago
I'd seen this Paris syndrome thing a number of times before visiting over the past year. It set my expectations low enough that it paradoxically helped make my visit a delight. People were delightful. Streets were clean enough. The subway system was older but functional and fine. It felt like any large city that wasn't built in the past 20 years (e.g. Shanghai) and has history and a broad demographic. It had the gritty underside of any large, bustling city, and many of the faults I could equally apply to London, NYC, and other major cities. Loved it. Plan on going again. I never felt unsafe or uncomfortable, and was always in awe of the beauty and history.
agumonkey 7y ago
Potentially Paris current mayor wants to turn the city into a mostly car free place. That might change a lot of the mentality. Let's review this syndrome in ~2025. As other people say, medium sized cities are gentler, and countryside is friendlier. e.g: was lost in a small town, and after roaming around in front of some tiny store, the cashier came out proposing to help me. I didn't even try to ask her from outside, she naturally took the initiative.
julienchastang 7y ago
I am part Parisian. (I used to live there and my family is from the city and nice banlieue). I love Paris, but what shocks me every time I go back is the quantity of dog poop (and also trash) in the streets and the inability of city officials to do anything about it. Here are a few tips for visitors: - When interacting with locals, always start off by saying Bonjour Monsieur, Bonjour Madame. That will help disarm cranky Parisians. If doing an AirBnb make sure to do this when seeing people on the “palier” — stair landing in Parisian apartment buildings. - Consider going to the top of the Tour Maine-Montparnasse, instead of the Eiffel Tower. You will have 1/100th the foot traffic and you won’t be surrounded by pickpockets. Plus you’ll be able to see the Eiffel Tower :-) - Check out and buy food from the local street market in your area. - My favorite thing to do in Paris still is flâner — to stroll about the lovely city.
- dreamcompiler 7y ago
  Seconded about Tour Montparnasse. The Tour Eiffel has become an expensive, crowded, dangerous nightmare. You have to go through airport-level security just to approach it, and going up requires previous reservations or waiting in very long lines. Tour Montparnasse is as pleasant as Tour Eiffel was 20 years ago. Tip: Go just before sunset and stay at the top as the sun goes down. Paris is loveliest during the sunset transition.
- amai 7y ago
  "I love Paris, but what shocks me every time I go back is the quantity of dog poop (and also trash) in the streets and the inability of city officials to do anything about it." Is the amount of dog poop in Paris even worse than in Berlin? I cannot imagine that.
  - ido 7y ago
    As a Berliner, dog poop (like litter in general) is very localized. There are large parts of Berlin (especially in the south west) that are very clean and if you e.g. live in Zehlendorf and work in the nice/wealthy parts of Charlottenburg you will not be overwhelmed by dog poop and grime.
- 7y ago
glennpratt 7y ago
We went to Paris in a rainy November, took public transit exclusively and stayed in a building with an elevator that could fit one suitcase, by itself, and a shower about the same size. We saw some homelessness and scams. And yet it was absolutely lovely. I could talk endlessly about the people, the sites, the food (and hardly just French food) and the museums. I'm sort of dumbfounded at people who can't see that. No one was rude to us, even outside of tourist areas, mostly just professional. Of course it's not Disneyland. We had to learn language basics, checkout travel books and scour the internet. I think this gave us rational expectations. Semi-related, I live in Portland, OR which has a similar climate, possibly similar civic challenges and interestingly, a similar fascination from Japan. https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/ https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/ Oregon even uses Japanese style animation in ads, presumably because of that. https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon
- xtracto 7y ago
  Meh... in every city it depends on the place you visit. San Francisco is horrible due to the extreme amount of homeless, addict and crazy people (I got harassed by one of them in my last visit). Ney York people are assholes (they just shout at you and mock you as tourist when you ask for directions). London was really nice.. but of course I'm talking about Hyde park and surroundings. Liverpool is beautiful, just dont go to Kensington. Paris for me was nice: very dirty but Sacre Cour and Champs Elysees walk was nice. Berlin also very nice.. somewhat messy and full of tourists (me being among them of course). Mexico city is freaking ugly 90%. And insecure, but if you go to the centre or Santa Fe , you will have a nice experience...
  - baby 7y ago
    yes if you visit San Francisco first, then Paris, then Paris seems lovely.
wozniacki 7y ago
Not to put too fine a point, but is this the Paris you've encountered?[1] [2] Do you expect others who've visited Paris to come away with quite a different perception, even being in the same places you were in or objectively no? [1] The Streets of Paris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4 [2] Is My "Paris Streets" Video Fake News? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iw1_Zakbb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iw1_Zakbb0
- pen2l 7y ago
  That's close to my experiences in some areas, and it's really nice? Wonderful and diverse food, folks walking around, it's really nice.
- douglasmurray12 7y ago
  Not all of Paris is like that. Those that can afford to tend to move out from such areas, resulting in a fairly segregated city. The politicians responsible tend to not live in such areas either.
  - pnako 7y ago
    Not just the politicians. The very people commenting that it's a great thing with "great food" (surprisingly the most common argument) don't live there either.
  - iron0013 7y ago
    Not all of Paris is like what?
    - douglasmurray12 7y ago
      Has a very large proportion of people that immigrated into France within 1-2 generations from outside Europe, mostly North Africa.
- Rels 7y ago
  What's wrong with this video? For context, I've lived in Paris for 28 years (left 2 years ago), and I just love the haussmannien architecture. Even in this video, you can see quite a few buildings like that, each more extremely elegant than the next. Is this video supposed to be a negative take on Paris? I didn't get why he showed the ongoing manifestation at the end. EDIT: OK I read the description of the video, what a disgusting human being. He's making the point that no "French" (for the person in question, that apparently means "white") people is left in Paris.
dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
Happened to me too, once! I remember passing by the Moulin Rouge, which I imagined like this: https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-rouge.jpg https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-roug... But instead I saw something like this: https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_640_10000.jpg https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_64... (Plus dirt, bad smell, etc.) But in general, Paris is a beautiful city with many really nice places. Can be very inspiring for a short stay.
pier25 7y ago
Paris has some iconic landmarks but other than that I find it's a very unpleasant and ugly city. If you want to see a beautiful imperial and romantic type of city go to Vienna.
intrepidhero 7y ago
Hang on. Why is everyone talking about dirty Paris streets and not about the claim that unrealistic expectations can result in literal psychosis? Surely this kind of mind-body connection would suggest further investigation, inform policy on deceptive advertising, etc.
- analCavity 7y ago
  Because intense disappointment is very obviously transitory, and it would be laughable to indulge the petulant temper tantrums of impotent flakes. Whatever this syndrome represents should be nothing compared to the break-up of a serious, long-term romantic relationship, or a particularly punishing loss that ruins a gambler. Furthermore, it's a clear indicator that psychology and psychiatry are soft sciences with imprecise qualifiers of conditions. It's fair to push for the classification of sensations, emotions and the manner of thought formation (suicide ideation, eureka/ah-ha moments), but just because someone had unrealistic expectations for their dream vacation, which is now ruined, and must be endured for several days, doesn't mean they have a mental illness that needs intervention. This is like one of those dubious maladies that a placebo could dispell. I like to say that Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS) is equal parts a hypochondriac's dream and a snake oil salesman's profit center. Is it real? Are the afflicted just pretenders? Actually, does it even matter? I think the disappointment and disillusionment is real, and what a pain in the ass the rest of the vacation will be, if your stuck in a hotel room with someone like this, but their mopey, sulky attitude is just a mood. After the 2016 election, lots of people were demonstrating a similar mood, the next morning. So, this sort of thing is a fact of life. There are winners and losers, and unforced errors. You're going to tie this to deceptive advertising? And then what? What else will you strap rubber baby buggy bumpers to, in order to offer emotional support for the sad people who suffered the indignity of their feet touching the ground?
- mettamage 7y ago
  IMO it's also really obscure, 20 in 6 million. That's about 0.0000003 chance. Isn't there a base rate? If anyone does something anything new that's as big as visiting Paris while coming from Japan, then I'd venture to guess that 1 in 6 million will get a psychiatric disorder. I mean, the chance is so low that I dare to guess that it might be the base rate.
newshorts 7y ago
Very interesting, I had the opposite effect. I grew up in a very “red” part of the US and was given a very negative view of the French (or anyone else for that matter). I was so surprised to find the people were friendly, kind and inviting. A small French restaurant even stayed open late because my friend and I had just arrived in Paris and had no idea of where to find food. The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt). Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.
- ip26 7y ago
  I grew up in a "blue" part, and visiting third world countries opened my eyes to, "maybe there is something we are doing right in the US". (The exaggerated liberal perspective being, we're doing it all wrong & screwing everything up. The exaggerated conservative perspective being, we are perfect and changing anything risks ruining everything)
  - taken_username 7y ago
    You may do many things right in the US, except the fact that you still rank the countries into first, second and third!
- vl 7y ago
  That’s funny, because Paris in general is pretty dirty city compared to other European cities.
- credit_guy 7y ago
  I somehow had the opposite effect too. I grew up in Eastern Europe, and people told me Paris is beautiful, but not necessarily more beautiful than, say New York City, or other western big cities. Well, once I visited Paris, I loved it so much, that I can't find any other city that compares with it.
- briandear 7y ago
  So clean and manicured? I am not sure what part of Paris you were in, but having lived in France for 4 years, “clean and manicured” is about the opposite of what reality is. Dog shit on side walks, people urinating in public, cars parking on sidewalks, crowded, often un-air conditioned subway trains packed with sweaty people, dingy hotel rooms, trash piled up on sidewalks, rats traveling in packs, pickpockets, prevail any graffiti.. Paris is a spectacular city with some incredible beauty, but “clean and manicured,” is a stretch outside of the marquee parks and well scrubbed tourist sites. As far as your good experience with a restaurant, those experiences certainly happen, but try going into a bank five minutes before lunch. Or try to enter a grocery store 10 minutes before closing.. or even many restaurants; your experience was a pleasant exception, but let’s be careful not to judge a city based on a single happy experience — I would be willing to bet in your “red” area of the United States, visitors could argue similar instances of unexpected kindnesses. Humanity is generally good, but we always see the grass as being greener.. Also comparing a world class tourist city to your town is a bit unfair, plenty of blight all over France. Travel 30 minutes north of Paris and it looks like a third world country in many places. But on the French: they can be kind and inviting, no question, but for a real treat, travel to the south of France. Zürich on the other hand is very clean, very orderly, very manicured. Vienna as well.
hokkos 7y ago
Paris syndrome is fake news : https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.fr/site/actualite/mag_voyage_pathologique.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.f... "No, because if these people looked good in their own skin, it was only an appearance. Indeed, they already had slight mood disorders, or a general malaise, but which remained unexplained or unconscious. "During the consultation, there is often a history that goes unnoticed, which neither the patient nor those around him or her have been aware of. At that time, these people were somehow predisposed to psychic decompensation," explains Dr. Mahmoudia. And all it takes is a triggering factor for the pathology to reveal itself. Also, being in an unfamiliar environment can lead to a distressing experience and reveal certain disorders. However, the journey is not the only revelation. "The same type of disorder can also occur at home, following a completely different traumatic event such as the loss of a job, a break-up with a loved one, or an assault," adds Dr. Mahmoudia. But in the context of a trip, what would have been a "banal" depression takes on a much more dramatic expression. In a second case, rare and more serious, the trip is part of the patient's delirium, it is part of a pre-existing psychiatric pathology. It is then described as a "pathological journey". Dr. Mahmoudia remembers this Japanese woman brought to the emergency room for behavioural disorders. "From Tokyo she said she heard the voice of the Virgin Mary begging her to come in front of the Notre-Dame de Paris church. In such a situation, the patient obeys the orders of a voice that he hears, but which is hallucinatory in nature and actually belongs to his own delirium. In other situations, the journey becomes an escape, a survival instinct. "Some patients have only one idea in mind: to flee at all costs from the haunting voice that persecutes them and prevents them from sleeping. Travel can therefore be a symptom, among others, of a pathology that is already known. "The journey then becomes part of a delirious process that belongs to the patient's psychiatric picture," concludes Dr. Mahmoudia. These two situations are different. In one case, the journey is part of the patient's delirium, in the other, it is the triggering event of his pathology. But in both situations, Dr. Mahmoudia prefers to speak of pathological travel or travel-related psychopathology, rather than traveller's syndrome. The latter term is used incorrectly, as it originally defines a completely different situation. Also called "Stendhal syndrome", the traveller's syndrome is actually a state of ecstasy accompanied by a strong emotional charge when in contact with a work of art. This experience remains quite rare and affects the most sensitive souls. Their heart accelerates, they are taken by vertigo, they suffocate. And then they quickly come to their senses. This emotion is not a real psychological disorder and therefore does not lead to any particular treatment. It was Graziella Magherini, a Florentine psychiatrist who, in 1990, described for the first time this surprising syndrome linked to travelling in art cities. Surprised to receive emotionally shocked tourists, she wondered about the effects of an artistic overdose. She then made a link with Stendhal's travel diaries, which in 1817, on leaving the church of Santa Croce in Florence, reported: "I had arrived at that point of emotion where the heavenly sensations given by the Fine Arts and passionate feelings meet. On leaving Santa Croce, I had a heartbeat, life was exhausted at home, I walked with the fear of falling". These are certainly moving words, but they are not comparable to the emergency cases that Dr. Mahmoudia is able to meet in his consultation."
rbrbr 7y ago
Who can blame them. Apart from the very center of Paris (that makes up maybe 10% of the city) with the old town and museums and cafes Paris is a very ugly city.
- moystard 7y ago
  You clearly don’t know Paris.
55555 7y ago
There is a similar Japan syndrome in NEETs and weebs who spend years obsessing over how amazing living in Japan would be and who then finally move there and realize it isn't as it is depicted in their anime and porn and on their imageboard
artsyca 7y ago
I've had this reaction to working in some large corporations I went in thinking it would be just amazing and expecting an exemplary brand experience only to land in HR hell with some dirty scoundrel managers and rampant corruption all through the ranks compounded by lame duck self-dealing executives I eventually had to be airlifted out after a bad reaction similar to a psychotic break People it doesn't have to be this way!
yesenadam 7y ago
I'm surprised no-one so far in the comments mentioned the smell of piss in the streets - has that changed? Seems like it must have. I was there in the mid 80s. I loved it. Particularly amazing melt-in-your-mouth croissants for breakfast and delicious huge (almost apple-sized) strawberries bought by the kilo. And the art and architecture, of course.

120 points by smacktoward 7y ago

What do visitors expect Paris to be like? What do they find instead? The article is missing this critical piece of information.

nyolfen 7y ago
> Many of the visitors come with a deeply romantic vision of Paris - the cobbled streets, as seen in the film Amelie, the beauty of French women or the high culture and art at the Louvre. > The reality can come as a shock. > An encounter with a rude taxi driver, or a Parisian waiter who shouts at customers who cannot speak fluent French, might be laughed off by those from other Western cultures. > But for the Japanese - used to a more polite and helpful society in which voices are rarely raised in anger - the experience of their dream city turning into a nightmare can simply be too much. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm
Nightshaxx 7y ago
It specifically says towards the bottom that in Japanese magazines, they depict Paris as being filled with people so thin they look like stick figures and that only wear high class fashion.
- tayo42 7y ago
  Idk about high class fashion, but I thought everyone in Paris dressed surprisingly nice. Scarves everywhere lol. Even people wearing sweatpants seemed put together with planned outfits.
kjlhlwkejthoiu 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Paris
- deogeo 7y ago
  > 20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent. Wow - that's a very fast demographic change.
  - narag 7y ago
    Capitals tend to attrack most inmigration. As an anecdote, my son's primary class in Madrid had more than a third of inmigrant parents, including Russia, Iran, South America (most) and Morocco. The question, at least for me, is not where you come from, but how well can you integrate. Latins have it easier because we share the language.
    - douglasmurray12 7y ago
      Not all capitals - it is a question of policy. Tokyo, for instance, seems to be very different.
      - narag 7y ago
        Interesting. So in Japan people inmigrate more uniformly? In Spain is just a matter of opportunities. It's easier to find a job in big cities.
        jacobush 7y ago
        Nah, as far as I know there is no such policy: https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-face-of-tokyo-one-in-eight-shinjuku-residents-are-foreign-nationals.html https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-fac...
        douglasmurray12 7y ago
        12% in the most foreign-populated area still seems very low by European standards. Given that a lot of the foreigners are Chinese and Korean, to the European eye it looks even more homogeneous than that. Seine-Saint-Denis, for comparison, had 27% residents born outside Metropolitan France, and that was in 1999. Marseille is 25% muslim.
unreal37 7y ago
I guess it's expected to be self-evident. Expectation of Paris: "the city of light", "the city of love", the home of iconic structures such as the Eiffel Tower, home of fashion, moulin rouge Reality of Paris: construction, traffic, fences, security, getting scammed on the street... a normal city
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  But the food is pretty great.

bsaul 7y ago

let’s be honest. Paris center is really great, but all the rest is trash by any standard (not even the japanese one). And i’m not even talking about suburbs, which people coming from the airport must go through. People are absolutely not what you’d expect french to look like ( and i’m not talking about size), public transport are a total trash, working only half the time correctly.. Restrooms makes us look like a third world country, etc. I could go on and on , but i’ll just sum it up with one anecdote : i spent a month in japan, and this is the first time in my life i felt ashamed of the way we treat tourists in Paris. Food in touristic places is garbage, people are generally rude, etc etc.. My advice if you want to visit paris : rent something nice in the center, and take a cab straight from the aiport, and make the ride by night.

tristor 7y ago
I think you're being downvoted for having a negative viewpoint, but what you said is very accurate. I'm not French, but I've spent some time in France and loved it. France is a gorgeous country and people were generally friendly and welcoming, Paris is the exception. There are parts of Paris which are nice, but a significant chunk of the city is exceptionally dreary (partly due to architectural design, heavy use of brutalism, etc), dirty, and many people I encountered in Paris were very rude to me, even before I opened my mouth. I've traveled all over the world, Paris is not anywhere near that bad compared to many places I've been, and generally I enjoy most places I spend time in because there's something positive to be found everywhere. But I wanted to reinforce your viewpoint, because it is not inaccurate, even though I find it to be somewhat one-sided. I don't believe sharing this deserves downvotes, especially in the context of the link.
- ivanbakel 7y ago
  The OP is probably being down voted for the racist dogwhistle in their comment.
  - notduncansmith 7y ago
    Which part is the racist dogwhistle?

rayiner 7y ago

I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. (I speak a bit of French, and in my experience people were very friendly if you at least tried to communicate in French to begin with.) That said, Parisian bathrooms give me nightmares. The only place outside of Bangladesh where I’ve seen squat toilets.

pen2l 7y ago
Squat toilets permit a straighter path for stool to pass through: https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2/j/o0634053614112148113.jpg https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2... Here is a study that confirms this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773 Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I'm level B1, what level would you say you are/how many years of instruction have you got?
- viscanti 7y ago
  > Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I've found this to be the case too. But their English is almost always better than my French. I've found that attempting French does produce a much more friendly response than just going in an speaking English loudly.
hollander 7y ago
You may find squat toilets along the autoroute in resting areas without restaurants and gas station, and maybe at some campings, but I've never seen any in a bar or restaurant, let alone a hotel.
csomar 7y ago
> I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. I've had extremes. Either very rude, or unreasonably nice and friendly. Paris has 10 million people around, so there must be some very good people. But the average guy you'll hit on the street is probably going to be a mediocre experience.

xorand 7y ago

Paris is a big city, that's all. The Eiffel Tower and Moulin Rouge are not among the most interesting things to see in Paris. People are not like in a Disney movie.

_Wintermute 7y ago

I've lived in a few big cities but Paris definitely is very different to the others. There are moments when it's like the depictions in the films: quiet boulevards lined with Haussmann apartments sitting ontop of quaint boulangeries. I think this is why it's such a shock when you're faced with the rest of it which is dirty, smelly, noisy, home to 10 million people filled with scam artists and impatient Parisians.

hodgesrm 7y ago
Paris reminds me a lot of San Francisco. Both have world class neighborhoods but also areas that are pretty awful (homelessness, crime, trash, etc.) Personally I find Paris very similar to navigate. The not-do-good parts do not seem much different from the Tenderloin in SF and require the same attention to surroundings.
- bsaul 7y ago
  I’ve also lived in SF and believe me, the problem is entirely different. It’s just a different scale. We’re not talking about having « diverse neighborhoods » or « sketchy neighborhoods » ( it’s part of the fun of living in a big city). Actually i’ve lived a huge part of my life in those neighborhoods, and criminality isn’t such a big problem (although things are very very different if you’re a girl). The most pressing matter for the country is the cultural gap between very large parts of the whole french population (not just a district or a city). The country is currently facing an identity crisis and the fact that overtly racists political parties are close to winning every election should be a sign that something’s going really bad there. Unfortunately the debate is completely crippled by people who refuse to address the issue like grown ups ( either by calling everyone a racist, or by actually being racist)

endorphone 7y ago

I'd seen this Paris syndrome thing a number of times before visiting over the past year. It set my expectations low enough that it paradoxically helped make my visit a delight. People were delightful. Streets were clean enough. The subway system was older but functional and fine. It felt like any large city that wasn't built in the past 20 years (e.g. Shanghai) and has history and a broad demographic. It had the gritty underside of any large, bustling city, and many of the faults I could equally apply to London, NYC, and other major cities. Loved it. Plan on going again. I never felt unsafe or uncomfortable, and was always in awe of the beauty and history.

agumonkey 7y ago

Potentially Paris current mayor wants to turn the city into a mostly car free place. That might change a lot of the mentality. Let's review this syndrome in ~2025. As other people say, medium sized cities are gentler, and countryside is friendlier. e.g: was lost in a small town, and after roaming around in front of some tiny store, the cashier came out proposing to help me. I didn't even try to ask her from outside, she naturally took the initiative.

julienchastang 7y ago

I am part Parisian. (I used to live there and my family is from the city and nice banlieue). I love Paris, but what shocks me every time I go back is the quantity of dog poop (and also trash) in the streets and the inability of city officials to do anything about it. Here are a few tips for visitors: - When interacting with locals, always start off by saying Bonjour Monsieur, Bonjour Madame. That will help disarm cranky Parisians. If doing an AirBnb make sure to do this when seeing people on the “palier” — stair landing in Parisian apartment buildings. - Consider going to the top of the Tour Maine-Montparnasse, instead of the Eiffel Tower. You will have 1/100th the foot traffic and you won’t be surrounded by pickpockets. Plus you’ll be able to see the Eiffel Tower :-) - Check out and buy food from the local street market in your area. - My favorite thing to do in Paris still is flâner — to stroll about the lovely city.

dreamcompiler 7y ago
Seconded about Tour Montparnasse. The Tour Eiffel has become an expensive, crowded, dangerous nightmare. You have to go through airport-level security just to approach it, and going up requires previous reservations or waiting in very long lines. Tour Montparnasse is as pleasant as Tour Eiffel was 20 years ago. Tip: Go just before sunset and stay at the top as the sun goes down. Paris is loveliest during the sunset transition.
amai 7y ago
"I love Paris, but what shocks me every time I go back is the quantity of dog poop (and also trash) in the streets and the inability of city officials to do anything about it." Is the amount of dog poop in Paris even worse than in Berlin? I cannot imagine that.
- ido 7y ago
  As a Berliner, dog poop (like litter in general) is very localized. There are large parts of Berlin (especially in the south west) that are very clean and if you e.g. live in Zehlendorf and work in the nice/wealthy parts of Charlottenburg you will not be overwhelmed by dog poop and grime.
7y ago

glennpratt 7y ago

We went to Paris in a rainy November, took public transit exclusively and stayed in a building with an elevator that could fit one suitcase, by itself, and a shower about the same size. We saw some homelessness and scams. And yet it was absolutely lovely. I could talk endlessly about the people, the sites, the food (and hardly just French food) and the museums. I'm sort of dumbfounded at people who can't see that. No one was rude to us, even outside of tourist areas, mostly just professional. Of course it's not Disneyland. We had to learn language basics, checkout travel books and scour the internet. I think this gave us rational expectations. Semi-related, I live in Portland, OR which has a similar climate, possibly similar civic challenges and interestingly, a similar fascination from Japan. https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/ https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/ Oregon even uses Japanese style animation in ads, presumably because of that. https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon

xtracto 7y ago
Meh... in every city it depends on the place you visit. San Francisco is horrible due to the extreme amount of homeless, addict and crazy people (I got harassed by one of them in my last visit). Ney York people are assholes (they just shout at you and mock you as tourist when you ask for directions). London was really nice.. but of course I'm talking about Hyde park and surroundings. Liverpool is beautiful, just dont go to Kensington. Paris for me was nice: very dirty but Sacre Cour and Champs Elysees walk was nice. Berlin also very nice.. somewhat messy and full of tourists (me being among them of course). Mexico city is freaking ugly 90%. And insecure, but if you go to the centre or Santa Fe , you will have a nice experience...
- baby 7y ago
  yes if you visit San Francisco first, then Paris, then Paris seems lovely.

wozniacki 7y ago

Not to put too fine a point, but is this the Paris you've encountered?[1] [2] Do you expect others who've visited Paris to come away with quite a different perception, even being in the same places you were in or objectively no? [1] The Streets of Paris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Js8wntdk4 [2] Is My "Paris Streets" Video Fake News? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iw1_Zakbb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Iw1_Zakbb0

pen2l 7y ago
That's close to my experiences in some areas, and it's really nice? Wonderful and diverse food, folks walking around, it's really nice.
douglasmurray12 7y ago
Not all of Paris is like that. Those that can afford to tend to move out from such areas, resulting in a fairly segregated city. The politicians responsible tend to not live in such areas either.
- pnako 7y ago
  Not just the politicians. The very people commenting that it's a great thing with "great food" (surprisingly the most common argument) don't live there either.
- iron0013 7y ago
  Not all of Paris is like what?
  - douglasmurray12 7y ago
    Has a very large proportion of people that immigrated into France within 1-2 generations from outside Europe, mostly North Africa.
Rels 7y ago
What's wrong with this video? For context, I've lived in Paris for 28 years (left 2 years ago), and I just love the haussmannien architecture. Even in this video, you can see quite a few buildings like that, each more extremely elegant than the next. Is this video supposed to be a negative take on Paris? I didn't get why he showed the ongoing manifestation at the end. EDIT: OK I read the description of the video, what a disgusting human being. He's making the point that no "French" (for the person in question, that apparently means "white") people is left in Paris.

dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago

Happened to me too, once! I remember passing by the Moulin Rouge, which I imagined like this: https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-rouge.jpg https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-roug... But instead I saw something like this: https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_640_10000.jpg https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_64... (Plus dirt, bad smell, etc.) But in general, Paris is a beautiful city with many really nice places. Can be very inspiring for a short stay.

pier25 7y ago

Paris has some iconic landmarks but other than that I find it's a very unpleasant and ugly city. If you want to see a beautiful imperial and romantic type of city go to Vienna.

intrepidhero 7y ago

Hang on. Why is everyone talking about dirty Paris streets and not about the claim that unrealistic expectations can result in literal psychosis? Surely this kind of mind-body connection would suggest further investigation, inform policy on deceptive advertising, etc.

analCavity 7y ago
Because intense disappointment is very obviously transitory, and it would be laughable to indulge the petulant temper tantrums of impotent flakes. Whatever this syndrome represents should be nothing compared to the break-up of a serious, long-term romantic relationship, or a particularly punishing loss that ruins a gambler. Furthermore, it's a clear indicator that psychology and psychiatry are soft sciences with imprecise qualifiers of conditions. It's fair to push for the classification of sensations, emotions and the manner of thought formation (suicide ideation, eureka/ah-ha moments), but just because someone had unrealistic expectations for their dream vacation, which is now ruined, and must be endured for several days, doesn't mean they have a mental illness that needs intervention. This is like one of those dubious maladies that a placebo could dispell. I like to say that Restless Leg Syndrome (RLS) is equal parts a hypochondriac's dream and a snake oil salesman's profit center. Is it real? Are the afflicted just pretenders? Actually, does it even matter? I think the disappointment and disillusionment is real, and what a pain in the ass the rest of the vacation will be, if your stuck in a hotel room with someone like this, but their mopey, sulky attitude is just a mood. After the 2016 election, lots of people were demonstrating a similar mood, the next morning. So, this sort of thing is a fact of life. There are winners and losers, and unforced errors. You're going to tie this to deceptive advertising? And then what? What else will you strap rubber baby buggy bumpers to, in order to offer emotional support for the sad people who suffered the indignity of their feet touching the ground?
mettamage 7y ago
IMO it's also really obscure, 20 in 6 million. That's about 0.0000003 chance. Isn't there a base rate? If anyone does something anything new that's as big as visiting Paris while coming from Japan, then I'd venture to guess that 1 in 6 million will get a psychiatric disorder. I mean, the chance is so low that I dare to guess that it might be the base rate.

newshorts 7y ago

Very interesting, I had the opposite effect. I grew up in a very “red” part of the US and was given a very negative view of the French (or anyone else for that matter). I was so surprised to find the people were friendly, kind and inviting. A small French restaurant even stayed open late because my friend and I had just arrived in Paris and had no idea of where to find food. The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt). Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.

ip26 7y ago
I grew up in a "blue" part, and visiting third world countries opened my eyes to, "maybe there is something we are doing right in the US". (The exaggerated liberal perspective being, we're doing it all wrong & screwing everything up. The exaggerated conservative perspective being, we are perfect and changing anything risks ruining everything)
- taken_username 7y ago
  You may do many things right in the US, except the fact that you still rank the countries into first, second and third!
vl 7y ago
That’s funny, because Paris in general is pretty dirty city compared to other European cities.
credit_guy 7y ago
I somehow had the opposite effect too. I grew up in Eastern Europe, and people told me Paris is beautiful, but not necessarily more beautiful than, say New York City, or other western big cities. Well, once I visited Paris, I loved it so much, that I can't find any other city that compares with it.
briandear 7y ago
So clean and manicured? I am not sure what part of Paris you were in, but having lived in France for 4 years, “clean and manicured” is about the opposite of what reality is. Dog shit on side walks, people urinating in public, cars parking on sidewalks, crowded, often un-air conditioned subway trains packed with sweaty people, dingy hotel rooms, trash piled up on sidewalks, rats traveling in packs, pickpockets, prevail any graffiti.. Paris is a spectacular city with some incredible beauty, but “clean and manicured,” is a stretch outside of the marquee parks and well scrubbed tourist sites. As far as your good experience with a restaurant, those experiences certainly happen, but try going into a bank five minutes before lunch. Or try to enter a grocery store 10 minutes before closing.. or even many restaurants; your experience was a pleasant exception, but let’s be careful not to judge a city based on a single happy experience — I would be willing to bet in your “red” area of the United States, visitors could argue similar instances of unexpected kindnesses. Humanity is generally good, but we always see the grass as being greener.. Also comparing a world class tourist city to your town is a bit unfair, plenty of blight all over France. Travel 30 minutes north of Paris and it looks like a third world country in many places. But on the French: they can be kind and inviting, no question, but for a real treat, travel to the south of France. Zürich on the other hand is very clean, very orderly, very manicured. Vienna as well.

hokkos 7y ago

Paris syndrome is fake news : https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.fr/site/actualite/mag_voyage_pathologique.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.f... "No, because if these people looked good in their own skin, it was only an appearance. Indeed, they already had slight mood disorders, or a general malaise, but which remained unexplained or unconscious. "During the consultation, there is often a history that goes unnoticed, which neither the patient nor those around him or her have been aware of. At that time, these people were somehow predisposed to psychic decompensation," explains Dr. Mahmoudia. And all it takes is a triggering factor for the pathology to reveal itself. Also, being in an unfamiliar environment can lead to a distressing experience and reveal certain disorders. However, the journey is not the only revelation. "The same type of disorder can also occur at home, following a completely different traumatic event such as the loss of a job, a break-up with a loved one, or an assault," adds Dr. Mahmoudia. But in the context of a trip, what would have been a "banal" depression takes on a much more dramatic expression. In a second case, rare and more serious, the trip is part of the patient's delirium, it is part of a pre-existing psychiatric pathology. It is then described as a "pathological journey". Dr. Mahmoudia remembers this Japanese woman brought to the emergency room for behavioural disorders. "From Tokyo she said she heard the voice of the Virgin Mary begging her to come in front of the Notre-Dame de Paris church. In such a situation, the patient obeys the orders of a voice that he hears, but which is hallucinatory in nature and actually belongs to his own delirium. In other situations, the journey becomes an escape, a survival instinct. "Some patients have only one idea in mind: to flee at all costs from the haunting voice that persecutes them and prevents them from sleeping. Travel can therefore be a symptom, among others, of a pathology that is already known. "The journey then becomes part of a delirious process that belongs to the patient's psychiatric picture," concludes Dr. Mahmoudia. These two situations are different. In one case, the journey is part of the patient's delirium, in the other, it is the triggering event of his pathology. But in both situations, Dr. Mahmoudia prefers to speak of pathological travel or travel-related psychopathology, rather than traveller's syndrome. The latter term is used incorrectly, as it originally defines a completely different situation. Also called "Stendhal syndrome", the traveller's syndrome is actually a state of ecstasy accompanied by a strong emotional charge when in contact with a work of art. This experience remains quite rare and affects the most sensitive souls. Their heart accelerates, they are taken by vertigo, they suffocate. And then they quickly come to their senses. This emotion is not a real psychological disorder and therefore does not lead to any particular treatment. It was Graziella Magherini, a Florentine psychiatrist who, in 1990, described for the first time this surprising syndrome linked to travelling in art cities. Surprised to receive emotionally shocked tourists, she wondered about the effects of an artistic overdose. She then made a link with Stendhal's travel diaries, which in 1817, on leaving the church of Santa Croce in Florence, reported: "I had arrived at that point of emotion where the heavenly sensations given by the Fine Arts and passionate feelings meet. On leaving Santa Croce, I had a heartbeat, life was exhausted at home, I walked with the fear of falling". These are certainly moving words, but they are not comparable to the emergency cases that Dr. Mahmoudia is able to meet in his consultation."

rbrbr 7y ago

Who can blame them. Apart from the very center of Paris (that makes up maybe 10% of the city) with the old town and museums and cafes Paris is a very ugly city.

moystard 7y ago
You clearly don’t know Paris.

55555 7y ago

There is a similar Japan syndrome in NEETs and weebs who spend years obsessing over how amazing living in Japan would be and who then finally move there and realize it isn't as it is depicted in their anime and porn and on their imageboard

artsyca 7y ago

I've had this reaction to working in some large corporations I went in thinking it would be just amazing and expecting an exemplary brand experience only to land in HR hell with some dirty scoundrel managers and rampant corruption all through the ranks compounded by lame duck self-dealing executives I eventually had to be airlifted out after a bad reaction similar to a psychotic break People it doesn't have to be this way!

yesenadam 7y ago

I'm surprised no-one so far in the comments mentioned the smell of piss in the streets - has that changed? Seems like it must have. I was there in the mid 80s. I loved it. Particularly amazing melt-in-your-mouth croissants for breakfast and delicious huge (almost apple-sized) strawberries bought by the kilo. And the art and architecture, of course.