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How would you express the central point? Or is it the central point that you disagree with, or feel is "toxic"? (I dislike that word, because it's one of those

by marvin 7y ago

How would you express the central point? Or is it the central point that you disagree with, or feel is "toxic"? (I dislike that word, because it's one of those words that has a tendency to shut down rational discussion). On a certain level, I probably agree with you. The word 'loser' dehumanizes people by focusing on their lack of achievements that society cares about, and achievements or agency in their own life. How do they feel about this state of things? Probably not so good. Why did this happen, and what can they do about it? Well, maybe they're stuck in a shitty situation due to a confluence of psychological or even medical factors that's largely outside of their control. Maybe they're deserving of a break, some sympathy or a helping hand. But if a person (who might or might not be in this situation) happens to behave destructively towards others, it's possible to discuss that while still acknowledging the points above. Maybe 'loser' and 'less than a man' is an insensitive way to express it, which is why I was asking how you would express the central point. I think that "Ignore the haters, they're just fanboys with the sign flipped and not important" is sound advice to someone who tries to keep their sanity while attempting to do something good under a massive amount of scrutiny and criticism (some founded, most unfounded). I don't think we have to go so far to see examples of famous people that would have been much less stressed, had less problems and kept their focus if they'd been able to follow this advice in times of extreme stress. A couple of Elon Musk's famed Twitter episodes come to mind, if you're looking for examples. Even though famous people are in a position of privilege, they're still humans and have to endure the same emotional reactions as the rest of us. Usually amplified, since they get such a massive amount of attention. I think it's valuable to give them some coping tips.

paganel 7y ago
Not the OP but as I grew older I started to realize that calling someone a “loser” (seen as bad) just because they haven’t “achieved” much is simply not ok, it only helps to prolong this (I think unhealthy) state of affairs where everyone should be seen as doing something, anything, preferably something “productive”.
- marvin 7y ago
  This is unrelated to the article, but: Regarding the sense of the word loser you're using, there's also a fallacious aspect to it. Someone's worth as a human isn't defined by what they want to/are able to contribute with in society. You could live a perfectly good life that didn't contribute much more than your own survival and happiness. I think that a majority of the people who post on HN are ambitious people who have such contributions as a very central part of their identity. Many people here might unfairly judge someone who works a part-time job, mostly watches Netflix in their spare time and is generally a good person in most interpersonal exchanges. And there's certainly a lot of people here who would judge themselves if that's all they did.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    I find it fascinating how civil servant jobs don't pay well, yet the workers work for the government (and therefore, the people). David Graeber in Bullshit Jobs touches on this subject. And then just today there was this story about Kevin Rosenberg [1] who, after failing to pay off his debts by working hard, sued successfully to have his student loans discharged via bankruptcy. Yet he served 5 years in the military, and studied to become a lawyer (which he ultimately did not pursue a career in because of the conundrum between helping people versus getting paid well). Is he a loser? The word loser is a simple ad hominem, a DH1 based on PG's own essay about How To Disagree [2]. [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-bankruptcy-kevin-rosenberg-190151284.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-b... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

by marvin 7y ago

paganel 7y ago

Not the OP but as I grew older I started to realize that calling someone a “loser” (seen as bad) just because they haven’t “achieved” much is simply not ok, it only helps to prolong this (I think unhealthy) state of affairs where everyone should be seen as doing something, anything, preferably something “productive”.

marvin 7y ago
This is unrelated to the article, but: Regarding the sense of the word loser you're using, there's also a fallacious aspect to it. Someone's worth as a human isn't defined by what they want to/are able to contribute with in society. You could live a perfectly good life that didn't contribute much more than your own survival and happiness. I think that a majority of the people who post on HN are ambitious people who have such contributions as a very central part of their identity. Many people here might unfairly judge someone who works a part-time job, mostly watches Netflix in their spare time and is generally a good person in most interpersonal exchanges. And there's certainly a lot of people here who would judge themselves if that's all they did.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  I find it fascinating how civil servant jobs don't pay well, yet the workers work for the government (and therefore, the people). David Graeber in Bullshit Jobs touches on this subject. And then just today there was this story about Kevin Rosenberg [1] who, after failing to pay off his debts by working hard, sued successfully to have his student loans discharged via bankruptcy. Yet he served 5 years in the military, and studied to become a lawyer (which he ultimately did not pursue a career in because of the conundrum between helping people versus getting paid well). Is he a loser? The word loser is a simple ad hominem, a DH1 based on PG's own essay about How To Disagree [2]. [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-bankruptcy-kevin-rosenberg-190151284.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/student-loans-discharged-in-b... [2] http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html