28 ms·

Sometimes being a hater is not because one is unsuccessful or successful in their craft. A lot of hate in the modern age is driven by ideological capture. If so

Sometimes being a hater is not because one is unsuccessful or successful in their craft. A lot of hate in the modern age is driven by ideological capture. If someone is in your ideological outgroup and famous, hate them. If someone is a billionaire and your ideology tends towards the marxist, hate them, etc.

darawk 7y ago
I think tribal hatred is a little different than 'hater' as meant here. Fanboy/hater gets its essence almost from its triviality. I don't think PG was trying to describe all hate in the modern world, but rather this much narrower 'hater' concept as related to celebrity-type fame.
- ghostcluster 7y ago
  Hmm. I see a large fraction of Elon Musk's haters coming from an ideological perspective, for example.
  - darawk 7y ago
    Huh. What do you mean by that? I think of Elon Musk's haters as more coming from the perspective of thinking he's overly self important and irresponsible (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters?
    - speedplane 7y ago
      > (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters? I also like Elon, but the source of the hate probably comes from two sources. The first is the audaciousness of his general proposal: that we give up technology that worked for a century (oil) and try to build something entirely different. It's based on a bias towards the status quo. The second is probably more legitimate. No question Tesla has done amazing things, but is it really worth more than established players that sell 10X number of cars? The stock price doesn't make sense based on any traditional valuation, it can only be explained by popular enthusiasm and exuberance towards the vision that Elon provides. It feels to many that Elon is getting away with things that would doom any other company because of this perception. It feels unfair, hence the haters. Personally, I do love Elon, SpaceX, Tesla, etc, but I don't want to get involved in the stock market casino. I support what he does because of his vision, but Tesla's stock price makes no sense to me. Instead, I'll cheer from the sidelines, and invest my money in boring ETFs.
      - aguyfromnb 7y ago
        What about the fact that he paid a shady PI to shake down a cave diver trying to help with the Thai cave rescue? Or regularly sends his troll army after journalists with baseless accusations? Or that he commited securities fraud in plain site? Or that it looks like he bailed his family out at the expense of company shareholders? Or that he burned taxpayers in Buffalo? What about the fact that as the world wakes up to atrocities in China, he went there hat in hand, selling out to the CCP? There are legit reasons he could be disliked.
        speedplane 7y ago
        > There are legit reasons [Elon] could be disliked. Yes, there are many legitimate complaints about Elon, some disputed, some not. But the legitimate complaints you describe don't create the haters. What hedge-fund short-seller, or random internet troll, really cares about Hong Kong's civil rights? The same folks that are crying fowl on Elon support far more ruthless enterprises, their complaints aren't coming from a morally sound platform. The vast majority of hatred towards Elon is what I described: (1) his audaciousness; (2) inflated valuations that don't conform to traditional valuation models. Sadly, any legitimate criticism is lost in this noise.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - ghostcluster 7y ago
      The proponents of "Billionaires should not exist"
      - darawk 7y ago
        Oh, ya. Those people are a weird hybrid, I think. They're a sort of mix of hater and ideology, you're right. What it is is haterdom masquerading as an ideology.
lazyjones 7y ago
Isn't the ideological capture a consequence of being a loser? It's such people the promises of ideologies are targeted at, whether they promise equal wealth for all, punishment of people perceived as responsible for one's ailings, or posthumous rewards for unselfish behaviour.

darawk 7y ago

I think tribal hatred is a little different than 'hater' as meant here. Fanboy/hater gets its essence almost from its triviality. I don't think PG was trying to describe all hate in the modern world, but rather this much narrower 'hater' concept as related to celebrity-type fame.

ghostcluster 7y ago
Hmm. I see a large fraction of Elon Musk's haters coming from an ideological perspective, for example.
- darawk 7y ago
  Huh. What do you mean by that? I think of Elon Musk's haters as more coming from the perspective of thinking he's overly self important and irresponsible (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters?
  - speedplane 7y ago
    > (I like Elon though, for the record). I don't really think of his haters as ideological per se. What kind of ideology do you see in his haters? I also like Elon, but the source of the hate probably comes from two sources. The first is the audaciousness of his general proposal: that we give up technology that worked for a century (oil) and try to build something entirely different. It's based on a bias towards the status quo. The second is probably more legitimate. No question Tesla has done amazing things, but is it really worth more than established players that sell 10X number of cars? The stock price doesn't make sense based on any traditional valuation, it can only be explained by popular enthusiasm and exuberance towards the vision that Elon provides. It feels to many that Elon is getting away with things that would doom any other company because of this perception. It feels unfair, hence the haters. Personally, I do love Elon, SpaceX, Tesla, etc, but I don't want to get involved in the stock market casino. I support what he does because of his vision, but Tesla's stock price makes no sense to me. Instead, I'll cheer from the sidelines, and invest my money in boring ETFs.
    - aguyfromnb 7y ago
      What about the fact that he paid a shady PI to shake down a cave diver trying to help with the Thai cave rescue? Or regularly sends his troll army after journalists with baseless accusations? Or that he commited securities fraud in plain site? Or that it looks like he bailed his family out at the expense of company shareholders? Or that he burned taxpayers in Buffalo? What about the fact that as the world wakes up to atrocities in China, he went there hat in hand, selling out to the CCP? There are legit reasons he could be disliked.
      - speedplane 7y ago
        > There are legit reasons [Elon] could be disliked. Yes, there are many legitimate complaints about Elon, some disputed, some not. But the legitimate complaints you describe don't create the haters. What hedge-fund short-seller, or random internet troll, really cares about Hong Kong's civil rights? The same folks that are crying fowl on Elon support far more ruthless enterprises, their complaints aren't coming from a morally sound platform. The vast majority of hatred towards Elon is what I described: (1) his audaciousness; (2) inflated valuations that don't conform to traditional valuation models. Sadly, any legitimate criticism is lost in this noise.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - ghostcluster 7y ago
    The proponents of "Billionaires should not exist"
    - darawk 7y ago
      Oh, ya. Those people are a weird hybrid, I think. They're a sort of mix of hater and ideology, you're right. What it is is haterdom masquerading as an ideology.

lazyjones 7y ago

Isn't the ideological capture a consequence of being a loser? It's such people the promises of ideologies are targeted at, whether they promise equal wealth for all, punishment of people perceived as responsible for one's ailings, or posthumous rewards for unselfish behaviour.