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Just wait until Apple releases a Mac mini powered by an A-series CPU. If I had to bet, I’d say this will be the first Arm Mac they will release. This way deve

Just wait until Apple releases a Mac mini powered by an A-series CPU. If I had to bet, I’d say this will be the first Arm Mac they will release. This way developers can easily buy one for porting their apps before A-series-based MacBooks are released.

jdswain 7y ago
Which would look a lot like an Apple TV but running macOS.
- ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago
  So, the first Apple TV, then.
- OrangeMango 7y ago
  The Apple TV is more or less an iPad. It already supports bluetooth keyboards and other accessories, so you could really say that Apple already has an ARM desktop Mac, it just needs more user software.
ken 7y ago
I find it interesting that every Apple CPU transition has started at the top, but everyone and their dog seems to know that ARM will happen and this time start at the bottom. Apple rumors are half prediction and half wish. I don’t disagree with your wish (10 year old performance is fine for me) but it’s really not Apple’s MO. They aren’t going to release a new pro workstation and then turn around and make cheap low-end hardware aimed at developers.
AndrewStephens 7y ago
I am going to go out on a very short limb and predict that Apple does no such thing in the foreseeable future, say 3 or 4 years. In the past, Apple has only transitioned to a new architecture once it was so powerful that it could easily emulate older hardware. Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility as much as Microsoft on desktops but even they cannot release a new desktop/laptop that doesn't run existing software. Although ARM processors are fast in certain benchmarks, they cannot compete with x86 for performance and certainly cannot emulate the instruction set at a speed users would find acceptable. ARM makes great sense for low power devices and _maybe_ servers. Apple already makes tons of the former and seems uninterested in the later.
- runjake 7y ago
  Apple is (gradually) transitioning to ARM as we speak, right before our very eyes: the T2 chip and Bitcode. The A-series chips in the iPhone and iPad seem to compare pretty favorable to Intel processors in the low to mid end. Now imagine a version of the A-series processor with more space, thermal headroom, and cores.
  - ksec 7y ago
    >the T2 chip and Bitcode. BitCode is iOS only.
    - runjake 7y ago
      There's a plan for that. https://www.highcaffeinecontent.com/blog/20190518-Translating-an-ARM-iOS-App-to-Intel-macOS-Using-Bitcode https://www.highcaffeinecontent.com/blog/20190518-Translatin...
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        That article is overly optimistic and only works for the very specific, tailored example application. However, Bitcode is essentially repackaged LLVM IR so it's not hard to see it coming to macOS.
- fmajid 7y ago
  My iPad Pro is as fast on single-thread as all my Intel desktop machines, and 2/3 on multicore. In a non-thermally throttled enclosure, I would expect it to outperform. https://browser.geekbench.com/user/122632 https://browser.geekbench.com/user/122632
  - Macha 7y ago
    Right, but 1-2x perf is not nearly enough to naively emulate a system.
    - 7y ago
terhechte 7y ago
If I were to bet, I'd bet on the reappearance of the 12" Macbook with a ARM processor as the "Macbook Mini"
- sam_lowry_ 7y ago
  Something like Samsung xe303c12?
- twoodfin 7y ago
  My guess is a developer-focused supercar of a Macbook. 16 cores, FaceID, maybe OLED? Jet black, announced for preorder at WWDC. They wouldn’t be able to make enough, and now a boring, disruptive CPU transition is sexy. There have been some weird rumors out of Asia about a Mac “gaming laptop” that could easily be misinterpreting a product like this. Also, I think folks ITT are overestimating the difficulty of acceptable performance binary translation (not direct emulation) of x64->AArch64, especially when Apple controls and has experts at every level of the stack. 32-bit apps weren’t de-supported this year just to save some memory.
leonidasv 7y ago
But Apple's CPUs are so powerful because they have lots and lots of cache compared to most ARM SoCs. I'm not saying they can't release a Mac with ARM under the hood (they probably will), but I don't see it setting a trend for ARM desktops elsewhere. Apple can use a lot of cache in their CPU designs because they can charge a lot for their hardware (L1/L2 cache is very expensive). But the rest of the market can't since they're mostly selling commodity hardware — with commodity chips — and price is a very sensitive point there. So Apple could in theory make and sell plenty of Premium ARM laptops with performant x86 compatibility for older software while being fast and cool for native apps while the Windows/Linux competitors will be still lagging way behind with a poor user experience.

jdswain 7y ago

Which would look a lot like an Apple TV but running macOS.

ThePowerOfFuet 7y ago
So, the first Apple TV, then.
OrangeMango 7y ago
The Apple TV is more or less an iPad. It already supports bluetooth keyboards and other accessories, so you could really say that Apple already has an ARM desktop Mac, it just needs more user software.

ken 7y ago

I find it interesting that every Apple CPU transition has started at the top, but everyone and their dog seems to know that ARM will happen and this time start at the bottom. Apple rumors are half prediction and half wish. I don’t disagree with your wish (10 year old performance is fine for me) but it’s really not Apple’s MO. They aren’t going to release a new pro workstation and then turn around and make cheap low-end hardware aimed at developers.

AndrewStephens 7y ago

I am going to go out on a very short limb and predict that Apple does no such thing in the foreseeable future, say 3 or 4 years. In the past, Apple has only transitioned to a new architecture once it was so powerful that it could easily emulate older hardware. Apple doesn't care about backwards compatibility as much as Microsoft on desktops but even they cannot release a new desktop/laptop that doesn't run existing software. Although ARM processors are fast in certain benchmarks, they cannot compete with x86 for performance and certainly cannot emulate the instruction set at a speed users would find acceptable. ARM makes great sense for low power devices and _maybe_ servers. Apple already makes tons of the former and seems uninterested in the later.

runjake 7y ago
Apple is (gradually) transitioning to ARM as we speak, right before our very eyes: the T2 chip and Bitcode. The A-series chips in the iPhone and iPad seem to compare pretty favorable to Intel processors in the low to mid end. Now imagine a version of the A-series processor with more space, thermal headroom, and cores.
- ksec 7y ago
  >the T2 chip and Bitcode. BitCode is iOS only.
  - runjake 7y ago
    There's a plan for that. https://www.highcaffeinecontent.com/blog/20190518-Translating-an-ARM-iOS-App-to-Intel-macOS-Using-Bitcode https://www.highcaffeinecontent.com/blog/20190518-Translatin...
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      That article is overly optimistic and only works for the very specific, tailored example application. However, Bitcode is essentially repackaged LLVM IR so it's not hard to see it coming to macOS.
fmajid 7y ago
My iPad Pro is as fast on single-thread as all my Intel desktop machines, and 2/3 on multicore. In a non-thermally throttled enclosure, I would expect it to outperform. https://browser.geekbench.com/user/122632 https://browser.geekbench.com/user/122632
- Macha 7y ago
  Right, but 1-2x perf is not nearly enough to naively emulate a system.
  - 7y ago

terhechte 7y ago

If I were to bet, I'd bet on the reappearance of the 12" Macbook with a ARM processor as the "Macbook Mini"

sam_lowry_ 7y ago
Something like Samsung xe303c12?
twoodfin 7y ago
My guess is a developer-focused supercar of a Macbook. 16 cores, FaceID, maybe OLED? Jet black, announced for preorder at WWDC. They wouldn’t be able to make enough, and now a boring, disruptive CPU transition is sexy. There have been some weird rumors out of Asia about a Mac “gaming laptop” that could easily be misinterpreting a product like this. Also, I think folks ITT are overestimating the difficulty of acceptable performance binary translation (not direct emulation) of x64->AArch64, especially when Apple controls and has experts at every level of the stack. 32-bit apps weren’t de-supported this year just to save some memory.

leonidasv 7y ago

But Apple's CPUs are so powerful because they have lots and lots of cache compared to most ARM SoCs. I'm not saying they can't release a Mac with ARM under the hood (they probably will), but I don't see it setting a trend for ARM desktops elsewhere. Apple can use a lot of cache in their CPU designs because they can charge a lot for their hardware (L1/L2 cache is very expensive). But the rest of the market can't since they're mostly selling commodity hardware — with commodity chips — and price is a very sensitive point there. So Apple could in theory make and sell plenty of Premium ARM laptops with performant x86 compatibility for older software while being fast and cool for native apps while the Windows/Linux competitors will be still lagging way behind with a poor user experience.