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Fiat have made mostly terrible cars and could have done what Tesla did but chose not to. My concern, though, is that Fiat get to continue making mostly terribl

by mprev 7y ago

Fiat have made mostly terrible cars and could have done what Tesla did but chose not to. My concern, though, is that Fiat get to continue making mostly terrible ICE cars thanks to what feels like green washing.

mitchellgoffpc 7y ago
I mean, there’s only so long Fiat can keep handing billions of dollars to Tesla, so either they’ll eventually go bankrupt or they’ll start producing good electric cars!
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  The system works!
olyjohn 7y ago
Is the 500E really that terrible?
- shiftpgdn 7y ago
  It is horrible!!! Most of them lose as much as half of their already small range within a few years. I can't believe there hasn't been some sort of lawsuit against Fiat. It's so bad I wonder if it was intentional.
  - olyjohn 7y ago
    That explains why I can pick them up on Craigslist for around $7000 used. But I mean, even with only a 35 mile range, I could still get to work and back every day. For $7k, that seems like a damn good way to get into EVs. Aside from the range issues, are there any reliability concerns?
    - davidgould 7y ago
      Look for a Chevy Spark EV, only a little more expensive, even more fun to drive, way more practical, and extremely reliable. Not as cute though.
- dippersauce 7y ago
  Previous revisions of the vehicle had measly 100KM (65 mile) ranges, and were only available to US consumers in California. Fiat also used older cell tech that wasn't as reliable or dense as newer prismatic cells. I do not know if the cells were temperature regulated, but that would explain the range and reliability issues found with the OEM cell packs. The car itself is quite interesting in my opinion, but the untenable range and lack of accessibility doomed it to unpopularity. If Fiat made a reasonably priced version with at least 200KM of range, and high quality cells, I would make it my next car.
- greglindahl 7y ago
  It's called a "compliance car" for a reason, and Fiat's CEO said no one should buy one because they're terrible.
iagovar 7y ago
Terrible cars? Which cars? I owned a couple and I'd say Fiats reasonably priced and designed.
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  Fiat do have a reputation for making unreliable cars. I have no idea whether it’s deserved or not, but the joke that Fiat stands for “Fix it again, Tony” has been around for a very long time. I first heard that joke in a 1997 episode of King of the Hill, so people have been making it since at least then. Fiat made ads referencing the joke in 2014, so I presume it’s had some staying power too.
  - iagovar 7y ago
    AFAIK it got bad rep in Europe because they made cars for their domestic marked, got exported to northern Europe and had problems with some coatings and electronics. But honestly my experience is good. I mean, it's reasonably cheap, aesthetics tend to be ok at least, engines are decent, and overall it feels like they do a decent job for the price. Not to mention that they have some famous commercial vehicles that Fiat Ducato.
    - AmericanChopper 7y ago
      I drove a rental 500c around Europe once, and it was rather good. But it was brand new (had like 30 miles on the clock when I picked it up), and I’ve never owned one. So no idea if it’s reliability reputation is to be believed.
    - miskin 7y ago
      Fiat Ducato pretty much owns european recreational vehicle market. Huge majority of RVs is based on this platform.
    - inferiorhuman 7y ago
      A couple of my neighbors had 500Es and a few of my friends had gasoline powered 500s. The electric owners seemed to like the car well enough but declined to buy it after the lease (FIAT wanted an obscene amount of money compared to the lease price). Price was the only reason the 500E was appealing – my one neighbor paid about $120/mo after insurance. The gasoline owners were less enthusiastic. One of the big problems in San Francisco is that it was the Maserati/Generic Italian dealer that got the FIAT franchise (granted the other Bay Area FIAT dealers are just as bad). They're expensive, incompetent, and not particularly customer oriented. One friend had transmission/clutch issues and the dealer wanted $3000 to R&R the clutch on a car that was barely two years old. The other Bay Area dealers wanted about the same amount of money. I asked someone overseas to look up the book time and parts cost (about 3 hrs and $300 respectively). That works out to well north of $700/hr in labor charges. The scummy service advisor showed us what he claimed was the clutch they pulled and it looked almost brand new. Turns out FIAT put a hydraulic clutch control system in the American market ones and their Mexican factory put the wrong throw out bearings in early builds. The dealer never did give us the throw out bearing (I wonder why...). If I wanted an econobox with a warranty that was fun to drive I'd buy a Honda. They've had that market locked down for ages. If I wanted something more exotic I'd look at a VW. If I wanted something difficult to find parts for I'd get a Peugeot or Citroen. If I wanted something that rides like crap and isn't utilitarian I'd get a Miata. The story only gets worse with Alfa. FIAT couldn't even keep the press cars running and they kept blaming software issues for mechanical failure[0]. FIAT gets a bad rap in the United States because they don't have the cachet to get away with their mediocre quality and non-existent support network. 0: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-reliability-update/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-gi...
LoSboccacc 7y ago
fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever, the diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today. they have no clue on full size cars, and still pay for the socialized handling the Italian car sector was subject into the nineties, but below management they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right basket, the output is just phenomenal. and the Alfa tonale was a thing from unsuspecting times.
- woodpanel 7y ago
  As a premium SUV driver: Not at all an Alfa fan. But: Fiat made great progress under their late CEO. The current 500 is a modern icon IMO.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever, the diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today. Whatever FIAT is importing for the US market hasn't been particularly reliable. they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right basket, the output is just phenomenal. Speaking of, the one thing that surprised me with the 500 was how primitive its bluetooth support was. I think it will only sync contacts with a phone (playing audio is just not in the cards).
  - jimmux 7y ago
    My 500 has been great, but I always hear horror stories about the 500 in the US. I believe they have assembly in Mexico, which I assume is for the North American market. They are also built in Poland(?) if memory serves, so it may be that I have a European vehicle here. And yes, bluetooth is weirdly primitive. I prefer aux anyway, so no big deal.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  I have owned two Fiats and rented one. I think a Panda excels in Southern European medieval plan cities with its nimbleness, short dimensions, good visibility and just overall practicality. Also looks good. It isn't a sports car or a luxury car and the design accepts that. In Northern Europe, I would recommend something much more robust than a Fiat.
Hamuko 7y ago
I've heard good things about the Alfa Romeo Giulia.
hinkley 7y ago
As an American, I feel like prior to the 500, virtually the only Fiat (or Citroen, for that matter) vehicles we ever hear about are the absolute worst of the worst. That sort of confirmation bias has left me wondering on numerous occasions why Fiat is even in business, let alone why it's been able to acquire so many other badges. I'm just aware enough of this that I don't automatically accept statements like "Fiat have made mostly terrible cars". Is that really true? How could they be the third largest manufacturer if that's all they do?
- mprev 7y ago
  Fiat were famous in the 70s and 80s for producing cars that would rust away before the tires needed changing. Obviously an exaggeration but they used cheap Soviet steel (sometimes called washing machine grade in the motoring press). The 500 is fun (to look at, not to drive) but the Tipo, Punto, Panda etc are pretty dreadful. As to how they got to their position, I’d say that being effectively a flag carrier manufacturer helped sustain them and Chrysler were pretty desperate for a partner after the Daimler split.
woodandsteel 7y ago
>My concern, though, is that Fiat get to continue making mostly terrible ICE cars thanks to what feels like green washing. Don't worry, this is only temporary. European C02 standards are going to go up every year, so Fiat have to move to electrics as fast as they can.

by mprev 7y ago

mitchellgoffpc 7y ago

I mean, there’s only so long Fiat can keep handing billions of dollars to Tesla, so either they’ll eventually go bankrupt or they’ll start producing good electric cars!

toomuchtodo 7y ago
The system works!

olyjohn 7y ago

Is the 500E really that terrible?

shiftpgdn 7y ago
It is horrible!!! Most of them lose as much as half of their already small range within a few years. I can't believe there hasn't been some sort of lawsuit against Fiat. It's so bad I wonder if it was intentional.
- olyjohn 7y ago
  That explains why I can pick them up on Craigslist for around $7000 used. But I mean, even with only a 35 mile range, I could still get to work and back every day. For $7k, that seems like a damn good way to get into EVs. Aside from the range issues, are there any reliability concerns?
  - davidgould 7y ago
    Look for a Chevy Spark EV, only a little more expensive, even more fun to drive, way more practical, and extremely reliable. Not as cute though.
dippersauce 7y ago
Previous revisions of the vehicle had measly 100KM (65 mile) ranges, and were only available to US consumers in California. Fiat also used older cell tech that wasn't as reliable or dense as newer prismatic cells. I do not know if the cells were temperature regulated, but that would explain the range and reliability issues found with the OEM cell packs. The car itself is quite interesting in my opinion, but the untenable range and lack of accessibility doomed it to unpopularity. If Fiat made a reasonably priced version with at least 200KM of range, and high quality cells, I would make it my next car.
greglindahl 7y ago
It's called a "compliance car" for a reason, and Fiat's CEO said no one should buy one because they're terrible.

iagovar 7y ago

Terrible cars? Which cars? I owned a couple and I'd say Fiats reasonably priced and designed.

AmericanChopper 7y ago
Fiat do have a reputation for making unreliable cars. I have no idea whether it’s deserved or not, but the joke that Fiat stands for “Fix it again, Tony” has been around for a very long time. I first heard that joke in a 1997 episode of King of the Hill, so people have been making it since at least then. Fiat made ads referencing the joke in 2014, so I presume it’s had some staying power too.
- iagovar 7y ago
  AFAIK it got bad rep in Europe because they made cars for their domestic marked, got exported to northern Europe and had problems with some coatings and electronics. But honestly my experience is good. I mean, it's reasonably cheap, aesthetics tend to be ok at least, engines are decent, and overall it feels like they do a decent job for the price. Not to mention that they have some famous commercial vehicles that Fiat Ducato.
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    I drove a rental 500c around Europe once, and it was rather good. But it was brand new (had like 30 miles on the clock when I picked it up), and I’ve never owned one. So no idea if it’s reliability reputation is to be believed.
  - miskin 7y ago
    Fiat Ducato pretty much owns european recreational vehicle market. Huge majority of RVs is based on this platform.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    A couple of my neighbors had 500Es and a few of my friends had gasoline powered 500s. The electric owners seemed to like the car well enough but declined to buy it after the lease (FIAT wanted an obscene amount of money compared to the lease price). Price was the only reason the 500E was appealing – my one neighbor paid about $120/mo after insurance. The gasoline owners were less enthusiastic. One of the big problems in San Francisco is that it was the Maserati/Generic Italian dealer that got the FIAT franchise (granted the other Bay Area FIAT dealers are just as bad). They're expensive, incompetent, and not particularly customer oriented. One friend had transmission/clutch issues and the dealer wanted $3000 to R&R the clutch on a car that was barely two years old. The other Bay Area dealers wanted about the same amount of money. I asked someone overseas to look up the book time and parts cost (about 3 hrs and $300 respectively). That works out to well north of $700/hr in labor charges. The scummy service advisor showed us what he claimed was the clutch they pulled and it looked almost brand new. Turns out FIAT put a hydraulic clutch control system in the American market ones and their Mexican factory put the wrong throw out bearings in early builds. The dealer never did give us the throw out bearing (I wonder why...). If I wanted an econobox with a warranty that was fun to drive I'd buy a Honda. They've had that market locked down for ages. If I wanted something more exotic I'd look at a VW. If I wanted something difficult to find parts for I'd get a Peugeot or Citroen. If I wanted something that rides like crap and isn't utilitarian I'd get a Miata. The story only gets worse with Alfa. FIAT couldn't even keep the press cars running and they kept blaming software issues for mechanical failure[0]. FIAT gets a bad rap in the United States because they don't have the cachet to get away with their mediocre quality and non-existent support network. 0: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-reliability-update/ https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23145269/alfa-romeo-gi...

LoSboccacc 7y ago

fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever, the diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today. they have no clue on full size cars, and still pay for the socialized handling the Italian car sector was subject into the nineties, but below management they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right basket, the output is just phenomenal. and the Alfa tonale was a thing from unsuspecting times.

woodpanel 7y ago
As a premium SUV driver: Not at all an Alfa fan. But: Fiat made great progress under their late CEO. The current 500 is a modern icon IMO.
inferiorhuman 7y ago
fiat has marvelous compacts. the fire engine derivatives just run forever, the diesel made school twenty years ago and have an edge still today. Whatever FIAT is importing for the US market hasn't been particularly reliable. they still have good tech and when they put their eggs into the right basket, the output is just phenomenal. Speaking of, the one thing that surprised me with the 500 was how primitive its bluetooth support was. I think it will only sync contacts with a phone (playing audio is just not in the cards).
- jimmux 7y ago
  My 500 has been great, but I always hear horror stories about the 500 in the US. I believe they have assembly in Mexico, which I assume is for the North American market. They are also built in Poland(?) if memory serves, so it may be that I have a European vehicle here. And yes, bluetooth is weirdly primitive. I prefer aux anyway, so no big deal.
Gravityloss 7y ago
I have owned two Fiats and rented one. I think a Panda excels in Southern European medieval plan cities with its nimbleness, short dimensions, good visibility and just overall practicality. Also looks good. It isn't a sports car or a luxury car and the design accepts that. In Northern Europe, I would recommend something much more robust than a Fiat.

Hamuko 7y ago

I've heard good things about the Alfa Romeo Giulia.

hinkley 7y ago

As an American, I feel like prior to the 500, virtually the only Fiat (or Citroen, for that matter) vehicles we ever hear about are the absolute worst of the worst. That sort of confirmation bias has left me wondering on numerous occasions why Fiat is even in business, let alone why it's been able to acquire so many other badges. I'm just aware enough of this that I don't automatically accept statements like "Fiat have made mostly terrible cars". Is that really true? How could they be the third largest manufacturer if that's all they do?

mprev 7y ago
Fiat were famous in the 70s and 80s for producing cars that would rust away before the tires needed changing. Obviously an exaggeration but they used cheap Soviet steel (sometimes called washing machine grade in the motoring press). The 500 is fun (to look at, not to drive) but the Tipo, Punto, Panda etc are pretty dreadful. As to how they got to their position, I’d say that being effectively a flag carrier manufacturer helped sustain them and Chrysler were pretty desperate for a partner after the Daimler split.

woodandsteel 7y ago

>My concern, though, is that Fiat get to continue making mostly terrible ICE cars thanks to what feels like green washing. Don't worry, this is only temporary. European C02 standards are going to go up every year, so Fiat have to move to electrics as fast as they can.