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I don't understand this philosophy of "if only they could change their minds" The current regime has broken records year over year and almost the entire popula

I don't understand this philosophy of "if only they could change their minds" The current regime has broken records year over year and almost the entire population is happy with them. Chinese people are better off every single day. Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? How can you be so sure that their system will inevitably be bad for the people? Just because an absolute right to say (almost) whatever you want is essential to the political philosophy of the west does not mean that it can/would mesh well in Chinese society. I know you guys are going to want to crucify me for saying a lot of this but I work with a lot of people in mainland China and no one has any problems with the government, they stick to their own business and are doing pretty damn well. Obviously this could change one day but thats not our job as non-chinese citizens to decide.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? Nobody is advocating overthrowing Xi Jinping. But if you're in America, benefiting from the freedoms afforded to Americans (and their fruits), it's fair to ask you don't undermine those values at home or abroad.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  Is it also fair to ask a company that does business in a country to not undermine the values of that country?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
jstrong 7y ago
> I know you guys are going to want to crucify me for saying a lot of this thankfully for you, you live in a place where you can't be put in prison for expressing an unpopular idea.
Seenso 7y ago
> ...I work with a lot of people in mainland China and no one has any problems with the government, they stick to their own business and are doing pretty damn well. The topic of this subthread is not the attitudes of mainland Chinese, it's the attitudes of mainland Chinese who have immigrated to work at Google for economic reasons. I have friends who came from mainland China, and have talked to them about how their attitudes have changed over time. They don't all stay fixed in the officially-sanctioned mainland mindset. > Obviously this could change one day but thats not our job as non-chinese citizens to decide. So you're saying if someone is happy with something at least in part because they've been lied to, it's wrong for someone to interfere with their attitudes by trying to tell them the truth?
lolc 7y ago
I find China's productivity impressive. We can observe that wealth is increasing for a big part of the population and that is a good thing! Still the test for me is how a society treats its weakest members. And in China, one is severely restricted to even talk about its weakest members! That hampers everybody in knowing how they're doing. In light of the information we outsiders have, the censorship is hurting these people. I'm not willing to accept this oppression as a matter Chinese citizens are best equipped to decide when they are not allowed to learn the facts.
alisonatwork 7y ago
I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash. Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could land them or their families in "reeducation camps". That's the trick of authoritarian regimes. If you just shut up and do whatever the government says, they won't bother you (unless you are rich enough to bother extorting). But if you make a noise, you are screwed. That's the reason why everyone you talk to is allegedly happy with the regime. It's not in their interests to be anything else.
- elldoubleyew 7y ago
  I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently. The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you see the average citizen that really has no criticisms of the government. I've had conversations with Chinese people before about the American bipartisan system and free speech vs the Chinese counterparts and usually they come to this conclusion: "Americas system works for America, Chinas system works for China. If people could say whatever they want here there would be much more trouble, if there were multiple competing political parties they would be at each others throats in a way that makes Americas current polarization look like a beautiful political climate". Let what works for China continue to work for China, and what works for us continue to work for us. People, cultures, and ideas are different depending on where and how you were raised. The ideas that made the west great don't necessarily work for everyone.
  - cossray 7y ago
    How did you arrive at the conclusion that the West is great? Compared to what?
  - 7y ago

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Who are we as westerners to say that our system of governance is better than theirs? Nobody is advocating overthrowing Xi Jinping. But if you're in America, benefiting from the freedoms afforded to Americans (and their fruits), it's fair to ask you don't undermine those values at home or abroad.

shadowgovt 7y ago
Is it also fair to ask a company that does business in a country to not undermine the values of that country?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

jstrong 7y ago

> I know you guys are going to want to crucify me for saying a lot of this thankfully for you, you live in a place where you can't be put in prison for expressing an unpopular idea.

Seenso 7y ago

> ...I work with a lot of people in mainland China and no one has any problems with the government, they stick to their own business and are doing pretty damn well. The topic of this subthread is not the attitudes of mainland Chinese, it's the attitudes of mainland Chinese who have immigrated to work at Google for economic reasons. I have friends who came from mainland China, and have talked to them about how their attitudes have changed over time. They don't all stay fixed in the officially-sanctioned mainland mindset. > Obviously this could change one day but thats not our job as non-chinese citizens to decide. So you're saying if someone is happy with something at least in part because they've been lied to, it's wrong for someone to interfere with their attitudes by trying to tell them the truth?

lolc 7y ago

I find China's productivity impressive. We can observe that wealth is increasing for a big part of the population and that is a good thing! Still the test for me is how a society treats its weakest members. And in China, one is severely restricted to even talk about its weakest members! That hampers everybody in knowing how they're doing. In light of the information we outsiders have, the censorship is hurting these people. I'm not willing to accept this oppression as a matter Chinese citizens are best equipped to decide when they are not allowed to learn the facts.

alisonatwork 7y ago

I live and work in mainland China, and the government here pisses me off. Yeah, i am a foreigner, but this is my home. I pay taxes here. I deserve to have my voice heard. The Chinese government is trash. Because i am a foreigner the worst that could happen from me voicing such an opinion is the government doesn't renew my work visa. For Han, it could affect their social credit rating. For ethnic minorities it could land them or their families in "reeducation camps". That's the trick of authoritarian regimes. If you just shut up and do whatever the government says, they won't bother you (unless you are rich enough to bother extorting). But if you make a noise, you are screwed. That's the reason why everyone you talk to is allegedly happy with the regime. It's not in their interests to be anything else.

elldoubleyew 7y ago
I travel to mainland China very frequently for my company, however I don't pay taxes there so maybe my opinion should be weighed a little differently. The people I talk generally genuinely are really happy with the regime though. People respect the hell out of Xi, and faith in the central government combined with the Maoist nationalism that still prevails as the dominant form of identity for most mainland Chinese you see the average citizen that really has no criticisms of the government. I've had conversations with Chinese people before about the American bipartisan system and free speech vs the Chinese counterparts and usually they come to this conclusion: "Americas system works for America, Chinas system works for China. If people could say whatever they want here there would be much more trouble, if there were multiple competing political parties they would be at each others throats in a way that makes Americas current polarization look like a beautiful political climate". Let what works for China continue to work for China, and what works for us continue to work for us. People, cultures, and ideas are different depending on where and how you were raised. The ideas that made the west great don't necessarily work for everyone.
- cossray 7y ago
  How did you arrive at the conclusion that the West is great? Compared to what?
- 7y ago