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Vermont’s DMV has been selling personal data to private companies since 2004
- whalesalad 7y agoIf it means a pleasant experience at the DMV... sign me up.
- hinkley 7y agoI like you, you’re funny. A pleasant experience at the DMV... hahaha!
- hinkley 7y agoIf you’re in Washington State, chat up the DoL clerk the next time you renew your tabs. They’re not a government office, and they’ve been legislated to only make a couple bucks off of each tab or plate. If memory serves they make more money off the convenience fee for paying with a credit card than they do off of the licensing. They basically don’t have a way to turn a net profit. This is exactly the sort of situation that would make someone sell customer data.
- QuotedForTruth 7y agoI think the situation that makes the DMV sell their customer data is privatization of the DMV. Why should the DMV have to turn a profit? If they weren't at some point turned into a profit seeking entity, there would be no motivation to make money off their customers personal info.
- hinkley 7y agoIndeed, that’s probably the bulk of the problem. Although we also have police depts padding tickets because some of the revenue comes back to them. You put a measure on anything and people will game it.
- Keverw 7y agoWonder what other states have done privatization... I know I was reading in Texas, driving schools are allowed to give you your driving exam, so you can do the written test online and the driven test with the same driving school you bought your lessons from. I thought that was kinda cool and unique. So be useful if you are an adult who never got their license but don't really have any family or friends to let you use their car for a test. I know someone who refuses to let their adult child have a driver license as long as they still live at home because they fear a rise in insurance rates due to their age. I think i'd be cool if high school had driver ed again like in the old days.
- vonmoltke 7y ago> I know someone who refuses to let their adult child have a driver license as long as they still live at home because they fear a rise in insurance rates due to their age. That was my situation. I didn't get a license until I was 22, a month or so before I moved out (and the move was planned when I did).
- dmitrygr 7y agothere is no motivation to keep data secret. What we need, is some serious liability for heads of agencies or companies that lose or sell it. Then they will be motivated to keep data secret like it should be. Something reasonable, like 10 years in jail for each piece of data lost/sold without consent. That'll motivate them
- Keverw 7y agoI think that's a bit draconian, sounds like a way to ensure only the Facebook's and Google's of the world hold a monopoly as I could see that to discourage entrepreneurs and new startups.
- dmitrygr 7y agoOk. Then perhaps confiscation of 10% of personal net worth? It NEEDS to hurt, else it will just be considered a "cost of doing business"
- Keverw 7y agoMaybe a little better... I guess if you are a young startup and broke then nothing to lose? If you don't own a house or much in the bank... But I feel these breaches also make the compaines look bad, so bad PR I think is a big hurt. However at the same time you have no choice to be included or not with some things. Like with LexisNexis or Equifax, since as far as I know I can't tell them to delete all my info and as far as I know I never consented to them having my data.
- glitchc 7y agoPerhaps it’s time for a federal privacy law if even local governments want in on the analytics action.
- nfoz 7y agoDevil's advocate, why not let Vermonters vote in their own privacy law for their own government?
- paulddraper 7y agoAt the risk of getting too political on HN, the knee-jerk reaction to national (sometimes even international) solutions for every problem is tiresome and unwise. Some problems necessitate that, but most do not, this being one of them. I can't find the source, but I read a strong argument about the difficult of moving between nations, states, and municipalities, and the conclusion was that the more localized the legislation, the greater freedom people have. "Vote with your feet"-type deal.
- download13 7y agoIf you can afford to move
- paulddraper 7y agoRight. And moving between cities is easier than moving between states which is easier than moving between countries. So the more local the policies the lower the barrier to choose them.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- nerdponx 7y agoIf access to healthcare weren't tied to employment, it would be a lot less risky to move.
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- ddingus 7y agoWhat other States allow their DMV to do this?
- paulddraper 7y agoI believe most states do this. Or least, Vermont is not unique.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoPretty much all of them. NY DMV shares information with the private, foreign company running the 407 toll highway in Toronto. Canadians from other provinces have better data protection that prevents such sharing.
- tshannon 7y agoMost of them do, I believe. https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/evjekz/the-california-dmv-is-making-dollar50m-a-year-selling-drivers-personal-information https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/evjekz/the-california... I know MN and WI do.
- pdq 7y agoPretty much all states sell this data. It's vital for auto insurance companies to be able to get up-to-date driving records for policy quotes.
- miketery 7y agoThe issue isn't for insurance companies (where there is consent). > “Nobody — from agencies like the DMV to large corporations like Facebook and Google — should be profiting from sharing or selling personal information without meaningful consent. Congress must get serious about ending practices that violate the privacy of ordinary Americans,” Sanders said.
- rhizome 7y agoSo for quotes, that's one query. What justifies the rest?
- dmitrygr 7y agoWhen my bank wants my 1040 for refinance request, I fill out a form allowing the IRS to release it to them. No reason the DMV couldn't do the same. If an insurance company wants my info, I can fill out and sign a form allowing the DMV to release the info to them. Else, they don't need it!
- sukilot 7y agoPublic information for sale: > The database shows where people live, what cars are registered to them, whether they have criminal records, and their driving histories. > The only information it won’t provide on any condition is driver medical information and Social Security numbers, according to DMV officials. Photographs are also not for sale.
- _dubbs_yo 7y agoThere was a follow up by the VT Governor on this. He instructed the DMV to stop the practice for at least private investigators. Federal law requires some of this information be for sale to insurance companies, trucking companies, others. https://vtdigger.org/2019/12/06/scott-tells-dmv-to-stop-giving-private-investigators-personal-data/ https://vtdigger.org/2019/12/06/scott-tells-dmv-to-stop-givi...
- chadlavi 7y ago> Federal law requires some of this information be for sale to insurance companies, trucking companies, others. man, that is incredibly f*cked.
- astura 7y ago?? Insurance companies use your driving record to determine premiums. Trucking companies use driving records to determine who they are going to hire/fire.
- alistairSH 7y agoThe article doesn't specify, but in those cases, there should be some form of informed consent. I don't want Geico pulling my record unless I request a quote. They should be barred from doing so unless I explicitly grant permission. I don't want Schneider International pulling my record unless I'm interviewing for a job. They should be barred from doing so unless I explicitly grant permission.
- dsparkman 7y agoFlorida made $77 million in 2017 alone in selling its DMV data to bill collectors, data brokers, marketing firms, and insurance companies. https://www.fastcompany.com/90376510/floridas-dmv-is-selling-drivers-personal-information-to-bill-collectors-and-data-brokers https://www.fastcompany.com/90376510/floridas-dmv-is-selling...
- choward 7y agoThey hardly made any money. That's only 4 dollars per resident. That's ridiculous. I'd rather they just tax me another 10 dollars than give away my information without consent.
- NullPrefix 7y agoDon't give them ideas or they might just do it. And then sell your data anyway.
- paulddraper 7y agoNot all residents drive. But in any case, I doubt many people would think $4/yr for info that's probably already available.
- choward 7y ago> Not all residents drive. That's why I bumped it to $10.
- SilasX 7y agoNitpick: the comparison should be to the number of residents that get an official state ID through the DMV, not drivers, and the former is a lot closer to the total >15-year-old population than drivers would be. (At least, if Florida is like a typical state DMV, which issues the state ID cards that may or may not have a driving endorsement.)
- olliej 7y agoCould you give me your past addresses, dob, any names you've had, ...? Also, numerous states (I assume Florida is one of them) are hell bent on "real id" laws to control access to the polls, so essentially this is a "we will sell your data unless you choose not to vote". It also ignores that total impracticality of relying on public transport in many parts of the US - it's frequently not available at all, frequently delayed even when it is present, and is often absurdly slow (like 15-20 minute drives becoming more than an hour), and can be extremely expensive.
- stevespang 7y agoDMV's are SCUMBAGS
- madcow2011 7y agoSome of this is necessary, I think. When you get an auto insurance quote, companies like ChoicePoint (LexisNexis) are what provide driver history (accidents, violations, insurance fraud info, etc). So it's not like they're Google/FB/Amazon using this data for ad purposes. Obviously, not all of the money comes from carriers like this, but I wanted to point out that some of it is legit.
- choward 7y agoWhat's to stop those same insurance companies from using it for marketing purposes?
- VectorLock 7y agoI wonder how many DMVs do this. I bet its way more than people think. I went to a tire retailer website and they were able to look up make/model car by having me put in my license plate number. I thought that was pretty creepy - if that have that, what else do they have?
- wopian 7y agoIn the UK the make (i.e BMW) and the colour is public information. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/?locale=en https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/?locale=en
- Spooky23 7y agoProbably more than you think. There are private networks selling near real time location data from LPRs. There are probably physical retailers that can map you from the cash register to your vehicle.
- 77pt77 7y agoThere are a bunch of websites with this information available for a very small fee. It's incredible you can find names, addresses, phone numbers, emails, properties, cars owned, etc. Most of the questions asked for identity verification are useless if so much information is effectively public. And then there are soft credit checks... My impression is that there is a huge blind spot in americans regarding these things, they not only don't care but are hostile to anyone pointing the problems. I don't see this improving in the future.
- korethr 7y ago> DMV officials say the vast majority of the revenue comes from insurance companies and businesses who buy information about their employees’ driving histories. > However, the department has also allowed law firms, private investigators and out-of-state corporations to buy or access personal information about Vermont drivers, including where they live, the cars they drive, their driving records and their criminal histories. None of that strikes me as improper, with the exception of maybe out-of-state corporations, and in that case, it would depend on what the corporation was and what they intended to use the data for. Whether the data remains in possession of the corp after its original intended use (and for how long) and whether it is kept only for the original stated use or made available to other portions of the corp for other purposes would play into whether I considered that in improper or not. IOW, the case of selling data to corporations is gonna be a case-by-case "it depends". As for insurance companies and private investigators, I think it is right and proper that such entities can look up things like address, criminal history, or vehicles owned. While it seems that every entity gathering up any and all possible data about people will claim that all of the data gathered serves a legitimate business need, in the case of entities like insurance companies or investigators, I think that claim is more likely to be true than not.
- m463 7y agoCalifornia does too. I wonder if the new california privacy law allows you to opt out somehow.
- krallja 7y agoIllinois DMV definitely sells names and addresses. They misspelled my name in a very unique way on my drivers license once, and I’ve received junk mail to that name ever since.
- oops 7y agoDid you ever present that license to anyone though? It could have been them that sold your info. e.g. concert venues who scan licenses, etc. Not that I doubt the DMV did it!
- krallja 7y agoNo, I noticed the error while walking out of the DMV and went back in line to have it corrected. The physical card never left the premises!
- rubyfan 7y agoAs is every other DMV. Also voting records. Chalk it up to bankrupt state governments.
- DN20 7y agoI am surprised that VTdigger would report this, since they typically side with the state instead of the individual, and aggressively solicit donations from unions & corporations that profit from the corrupt status quo in Vermont. The executive director is a corporate fascist who worships the state and censors like crazy: the board routinely breaks their own posting rules to permit or remove comments in accordance with their political agendas. Pointless whining is always welcome, but hard facts and practical solutions are prohibited. Here's an example of censored comments from the current article: > "We don’t just let anybody have it." Smith is obviously lying here: if the data is so easy to get that nearly 800 companies already have it, there is simply no way to monitor & regulate what is done with that data. Some of these companies are false fronts, and the data is being used for criminal purposes — including fraud & industrial espionage. The public should refuse to support the governor in the next election until he prosecutes Smith for every stolen record in the DMV database. I recommend that we offer him a deal: 20 years in prison for a guilty plea, versus a life sentence for a quarter million deliberate violations of the fourth amendment (which amounts to high treason.) > Federal law requires DMVs to provide driver information to government agencies, and sell it to certain businesses... The correct phrasing here would be "federal policy", not "federal law": A federal statute or regulation which violates the federal constitution is not law. The powers of the federal government are enumerated in Article I, and all other powers are reserved to the states by the tenth amendment. When the states created the federal constitution they did NOT create a federal police jurisdiction within the states. The federal government has no lawful authority to demand personal information on state residents, or dictate state DMV policy.