4 ms·

Alcohol is really weird. It's unquestionably a pretty hard drug and yet it's (ab)use is completely normalized in our culture. It's also a drug who's abuse reg

Alcohol is really weird. It's unquestionably a pretty hard drug and yet it's (ab)use is completely normalized in our culture. It's also a drug who's abuse regularly kills people other than those using it.

kerkeslager 7y ago
> It's also a drug who's abuse regularly kills people other than those using it. I don't think this is unique to alcohol. Nicotine and driving seems pretty okay, but I can't think of any other deadly drugs out there which wouldn't impair your driving. EDIT: As other users have brought up, nicotine kills plenty of people other than those using it, in the form of second-hand smoke.
- quickthrowman 7y ago
  Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. Opiates, benzos, and alcohol all affect technical driving skills in a negative way. I’m not opening the THC and driving can of worms.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. I'm very skeptical of this claim. Do you have any evidence? Note that impressions of ones own performance while on drugs are not necessarily accurate.
    - quickthrowman 7y ago
      As it turns out, I was using my own experience as a guide, but this meta study[0] supports my claim. Lab tests imply better driving skills while real word experience shows the opposite. Cocaine and methamphetamine increase impulsivity, and “real users” (addicts) of meth in particular are prone to stay up for extremely long periods of time, long enough where the meth wouldn’t counteract the physical exhaustion, which would account for meth leading to more accidents in real life conditions. I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and response times for a rested person. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/
      - kerkeslager 7y ago
        > I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and response times for a rested person. Yeah, it does look like the evidence supports that. Interesting stuff. If restedness is the real factor, it becomes pretty difficult to regulate that. There are two problems I can think of: 1. I don't think that someone being on meth or cocaine meets the burden of proof to say they aren't rested. 2. People drive without adequate rest, even without stimulants. If someone is hasn't slept in 48 hours, it seems like it would be better for them to be on stimulants than not.
  - ThrustVectoring 7y ago
    >Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. Stimulant therapy on adults with ADHD has been shown to improve driving skill. Furthermore, ADHD is found more often in cocaine users than in the general population, likely due to self-medicating tendencies.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- randlet 7y ago
  Sure, lots of drugs impair your driving, but alcohol seems to be the one that people drive after using most frequently. This could be just selection bias though given that alcohol is the most widely used hard drug and easiest to measure/detect on the side of the road. It would be interesting to see a "drug" vs "drives after using drug" analysis!
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Yeah, I agree that would be interesting, but I don't think we can say right now. One problem with collecting this data is that breathalyzers are cheap, easy, well-known, and available. If there's an equivalent for detecting impairment from other drugs, I don't know of it.
- opportune 7y ago
  There are probably lots of people you drive by on your commute every day who are on prescription ADHD medicine. Maybe some on low doses of (prescribed) opioids as well, or prescription anti-anxiety like klonopin. The dose makes the poison though. There’s a reason low levels of alcohol are allowed while driving too
  - ThrustVectoring 7y ago
    Studies have shown that driving skill among adults with ADHD is improved under stimulant therapy.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  It's a very hard to scientifically compare drugs and their effects on driving...alcohol use is VERY widespread, so is driving, therefore alcohol use + driving is very widespread and we know just how terrible that is. Opioids and hallucinogens and THC/CBD probably all negatively effect driving, but it's much harder to compare due to less study, less scale, and less data (federally illegal/obstacles abound to study many of those things). Nicotine is not really a problem with driving, it's like caffeine in that sense...stimulants aren't as dangerous for machinery operation.
- throwaway5752 7y ago
  Second hand smoke killed millions of people and still kills thousand a year just in the US.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Good point, I was only thinking of the "driving while impaired" vector.
opportune 7y ago
Yeah, the worst thing about alcohol is how much it affects other people compared to other drugs. Not only from drunk driving, lots of people commit assault/domestic violence/sexual/nuisance crimes as well while under the influence. People on opioids might steal and lie to feed their addictions but I think the harm to others in the worst case is a lot less.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  Ethanol removes inhibitions, therefore people make bad decisions and they lose their filters which prevents their immoral impulses from rising to fruition. This is why someone being a "mean drunk" is a very bad sign...it's surfacing what is below the surface. If someone is a silly/happy drunk, it's a much more benign sign.
  - opportune 7y ago
    I don’t think most alcoholics would agree with this, btw. People who get drunk a lot usually aren’t one single emotion each time. This is almost on par with the belief that different liquors get you “different kinds” of drunk
GuB-42 7y ago
The thing about alcohol is that it is so easily available and useful for many reasons unrelated to getting drunk that many culture has some relationship to it. There is also no easy way to prevent access to it. Anything with sugar can become alcohol, including staple foods. For other drugs, you need to have access to some specific plants, or grow them specifically for that reason. Chemicals are even harder to get by, you need both precursors and technical skills. If alcohol was some exotic substance, it would definitely be banned.
draw_down 7y ago
It's also crazy to me to see people rail on the point of "marijuana is not completely safe!" when we sell this literal poison everywhere. And it's so much more destructive than whatever people think is so scary about marijuana.
smallcharleston 7y ago
If you use it normally (1-2 drinks or less max daily) it doesn’t seem like a drug to me. Basically a perhaps mildly unhealthy food item that makes you a bit more social for an hour.
vasilipupkin 7y ago
The reality is that most of us can drink pretty regularly and enjoy it and not really experience any adverse effects. About 20% of the population develops serious problems related to alcohol consumption, but that leaves 80% of us.
- throw_this_one 7y ago
  It's still a stressor and a carcinogen. So if you're drinking regularly, you will still have a negative effect long term.
  - non-entity 7y ago
    So is much of the food I eat. Should we consider banning processed food / fast food/ meat as well?

kerkeslager 7y ago

> It's also a drug who's abuse regularly kills people other than those using it. I don't think this is unique to alcohol. Nicotine and driving seems pretty okay, but I can't think of any other deadly drugs out there which wouldn't impair your driving. EDIT: As other users have brought up, nicotine kills plenty of people other than those using it, in the form of second-hand smoke.

quickthrowman 7y ago
Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. Opiates, benzos, and alcohol all affect technical driving skills in a negative way. I’m not opening the THC and driving can of worms.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. I'm very skeptical of this claim. Do you have any evidence? Note that impressions of ones own performance while on drugs are not necessarily accurate.
  - quickthrowman 7y ago
    As it turns out, I was using my own experience as a guide, but this meta study[0] supports my claim. Lab tests imply better driving skills while real word experience shows the opposite. Cocaine and methamphetamine increase impulsivity, and “real users” (addicts) of meth in particular are prone to stay up for extremely long periods of time, long enough where the meth wouldn’t counteract the physical exhaustion, which would account for meth leading to more accidents in real life conditions. I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and response times for a rested person. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22842792/
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      > I still maintain that cocaine or meth would improve the driving skills and response times for a rested person. Yeah, it does look like the evidence supports that. Interesting stuff. If restedness is the real factor, it becomes pretty difficult to regulate that. There are two problems I can think of: 1. I don't think that someone being on meth or cocaine meets the burden of proof to say they aren't rested. 2. People drive without adequate rest, even without stimulants. If someone is hasn't slept in 48 hours, it seems like it would be better for them to be on stimulants than not.
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  >Cocaine, methamphetamine don’t impact your ability to drive well, but they may make you drive more impulsively. Stimulant therapy on adults with ADHD has been shown to improve driving skill. Furthermore, ADHD is found more often in cocaine users than in the general population, likely due to self-medicating tendencies.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
randlet 7y ago
Sure, lots of drugs impair your driving, but alcohol seems to be the one that people drive after using most frequently. This could be just selection bias though given that alcohol is the most widely used hard drug and easiest to measure/detect on the side of the road. It would be interesting to see a "drug" vs "drives after using drug" analysis!
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  Yeah, I agree that would be interesting, but I don't think we can say right now. One problem with collecting this data is that breathalyzers are cheap, easy, well-known, and available. If there's an equivalent for detecting impairment from other drugs, I don't know of it.
opportune 7y ago
There are probably lots of people you drive by on your commute every day who are on prescription ADHD medicine. Maybe some on low doses of (prescribed) opioids as well, or prescription anti-anxiety like klonopin. The dose makes the poison though. There’s a reason low levels of alcohol are allowed while driving too
- ThrustVectoring 7y ago
  Studies have shown that driving skill among adults with ADHD is improved under stimulant therapy.
WhompingWindows 7y ago
It's a very hard to scientifically compare drugs and their effects on driving...alcohol use is VERY widespread, so is driving, therefore alcohol use + driving is very widespread and we know just how terrible that is. Opioids and hallucinogens and THC/CBD probably all negatively effect driving, but it's much harder to compare due to less study, less scale, and less data (federally illegal/obstacles abound to study many of those things). Nicotine is not really a problem with driving, it's like caffeine in that sense...stimulants aren't as dangerous for machinery operation.
throwaway5752 7y ago
Second hand smoke killed millions of people and still kills thousand a year just in the US.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  Good point, I was only thinking of the "driving while impaired" vector.

opportune 7y ago

Yeah, the worst thing about alcohol is how much it affects other people compared to other drugs. Not only from drunk driving, lots of people commit assault/domestic violence/sexual/nuisance crimes as well while under the influence. People on opioids might steal and lie to feed their addictions but I think the harm to others in the worst case is a lot less.

WhompingWindows 7y ago
Ethanol removes inhibitions, therefore people make bad decisions and they lose their filters which prevents their immoral impulses from rising to fruition. This is why someone being a "mean drunk" is a very bad sign...it's surfacing what is below the surface. If someone is a silly/happy drunk, it's a much more benign sign.
- opportune 7y ago
  I don’t think most alcoholics would agree with this, btw. People who get drunk a lot usually aren’t one single emotion each time. This is almost on par with the belief that different liquors get you “different kinds” of drunk

GuB-42 7y ago

The thing about alcohol is that it is so easily available and useful for many reasons unrelated to getting drunk that many culture has some relationship to it. There is also no easy way to prevent access to it. Anything with sugar can become alcohol, including staple foods. For other drugs, you need to have access to some specific plants, or grow them specifically for that reason. Chemicals are even harder to get by, you need both precursors and technical skills. If alcohol was some exotic substance, it would definitely be banned.

draw_down 7y ago

It's also crazy to me to see people rail on the point of "marijuana is not completely safe!" when we sell this literal poison everywhere. And it's so much more destructive than whatever people think is so scary about marijuana.

smallcharleston 7y ago

If you use it normally (1-2 drinks or less max daily) it doesn’t seem like a drug to me. Basically a perhaps mildly unhealthy food item that makes you a bit more social for an hour.

vasilipupkin 7y ago

The reality is that most of us can drink pretty regularly and enjoy it and not really experience any adverse effects. About 20% of the population develops serious problems related to alcohol consumption, but that leaves 80% of us.

throw_this_one 7y ago
It's still a stressor and a carcinogen. So if you're drinking regularly, you will still have a negative effect long term.
- non-entity 7y ago
  So is much of the food I eat. Should we consider banning processed food / fast food/ meat as well?