9 ms·

There isn't really an issue here. Mazda tuned the acceleration of their EV to feel like a conventional car. That's probably good UX if your market target is fi

by jmull 7y ago

There isn't really an issue here. Mazda tuned the acceleration of their EV to feel like a conventional car. That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's who aren't especially keen on zipping around. The author of the article criticizes the decision because it makes the car less fun, apparently unaware that many people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive driving. Not to mention, the acceleration profile of conventional cars is tuned to the characteristics the designers want, too, and they aren't all tuned for "fun".

izzydata 7y ago
I bet it also saves battery so they can advertise a higher number of miles.
- cronix 7y ago
  Yes, charges last longer and the battery degrades slower with lower peak discharges. The same with charging too, though, but most people want to charge as fast as possible.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  Most EVs have at least 2 modes you can configure. Many ICE vehicles have similar modes. The Nissan Leaf has an "Eco" button that changes the acceleration curve and some models have a Hill Mode toggle on the Shifter that affects the regenerative braking characteristics.
- pdpi 7y ago
  I find it unlikely, but if that is actually so, it would be an entirely reasonable tradeoff to make.
me_me_me 7y ago
Have switch for a normal mode and sports mode - solved.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Perhaps “chill” and “standard” modes.
  - bitexploder 7y ago
    Crazy talk. Cars can have software controlled settings? Maybe you could start a car company and name it after a famous inventor or something. This seems like a real idea.
- kulahan 7y ago
  I've got a gas Mazda and it already has that. It would be strange to step into the EV version and NOT see one, honestly.
cptskippy 7y ago
> The author of the article criticizes the decision because it makes the car less fun Isn't "fun" what Mazda is known for? Their "Zoom Zoom" campaign ran for 14 years on the premise that Mazdas are more fun to drive. Now they're intentionally making them less fun?
- eloff 7y ago
  Yeah, it's a very odd choice from Mazda specifically for this reason.
- empath75 7y ago
  An electric Miata seems like a no brainer.
  - magila 7y ago
    One of the big selling points of the Miata is it's light weight. Mazda has gone to pretty extreme lengths (for such a low priced car) to keep the weight down. A heavy battery wouldn't fit with that at all.
    - Spare_account 7y ago
      The selling point of the Miata is the handling. If they can re-create the agility (cornering) of the internal combustion Miata, the weight is secondary.
      - otherme123 7y ago
        The agility can only be done with a fine tunning of weight vs power. Mazda Miata sacrifices pure power, and thus max speed, to get "fun". If you add weight to a car you get more inertia, killing the handling and the fun. This is know since forever. Read the history of Karajan and his Porsche. He wanted a fun and sporty car tailored to him, but he didn't ask for more power. He requested less weight, and they even removed the radio, the back seats and the door handlers to get there. The only way to get the cornering and fun of the ICE Miata is to get a EV Miata that weights about the same. Then get the 50%/50% weight distribution (this is easy with EV) and there you go.
olyjohn 7y ago
Exactly. If someone is buying a compact CUV, they are probably looking for 4 doors, a hatchback, and a high ride height. Not really a vehicle that most people look to for fun. Not to mention, reducing the torque output probably also saves a few electrons and extends the range a bit.
lowdose 7y ago
It's about the missed metaphor. Before Tesla EV = not a car. Tesla proved EV can have a Ferrari like acceleration and hence EV = car. It isn't always about UX. Sometimes you have to prove another point which Tesla did. Nobody at the traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla so consumers feel safe to buy a Tesla. That was a major point in the buying decision of average consumers and probably is why the cybertruck looks as safe as a tank.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  This is also why Musk sent a team with a Model S (tri motor Plaid mode) to the Nurburgring track and built a Supercharger there. Appearance, status, and signaling matter to consumers. It’s not good enough to be good enough. Tesla has to show they can be the best choice (and arguably, they have shown that).
  - lowdose 7y ago
    Exactly. Its also why Elon comes up with lines like a car driver is an elevator operator and owning a traditional ICE car is like owning a horse. This gives everybody the tools to effectually spread the word via word of mouth. It is an under appreciated part of technology marketing that is extremely important to make a product succeed. Hence that is the part Docker was got right.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  > Nobody at the traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla > consumers feel safe to buy a Tesla That's a bit of a stretch. First of all, why would anybody in a supercar make fun of a Tesla, they're not aimed at the same market. Consumers feel perfectly safe to buy a Prius or Leaf and neither of those have Tesla like acceleration, and don't need it either. People making fun of other people because of the vehicles they drive are just insecure. If you really think that the acceleration characteristics of a vehicle is what sells your average car then you're mistaken, most people simply need transportation and don't want to do drag races in traffic.
  - lr 7y ago
misterbwong 7y ago
Agree on this one. This is probably more about Mazda's wanting to optimize the driving experience than about talking down EV's or pushing fuel cell as the author implies. FTA: I know that Mazda likes to tune their cars for a specific driving feel, but I refuse to believe they couldn’t work the fun acceleration of EVs into their driving feeling. Seems like they did exactly what the author is asking. Looking at Mazda's lineup, their core philosophy revolves around driver experience and feel (zoom-zoom) so it makes a lot of sense that they tune (down in this case) their EV's to match what they feel is the best experience for a car.
- NeutronStar 7y ago
  How about they just provide the option to switch between "sport" and "normal" modes...
- jandrese 7y ago
  I don't know why that other post is dead. Having a "sport" mode that changes the acceleration profile for those few times when people really want it seems like a no-brainer solution here. It's entirely a software fix, and something people are already familiar with in cars. This should be a non-issue.
  - dredds 7y ago
    True that software upgrades are a new paradigm exemplified by Tesla, but potentially also monetized (appified), so a skeptical person might think these add-on "features" will increasingly become ongoing revenue streams, as with our driving data, or privacy thereof.
torgoguys 7y ago
Agree. Also, if you click through to the underlying article where the quote comes from you find that Mazda engineers were being very conscious of the total environmental impact when designing their EV. (Let's set aside their claim about the EV vs. diesels for now). Keeping people from spending an enormous number of electrons to accelerate a bit quicker falls within this design philosophy. Even that that isn't the reason quoted in the article, I bet it was a factor.
- natch 7y ago
  It would be mistaken for these engineers to think that something that leads people to pass on their offering and instead choose an ICE car would be better for environmental impact. Better acceleration may use more power, but if it means people buy EVs instead of ICE cars, then it is helping the goal.
lr 7y ago
0-60 in 9 seconds is not only terrible, it is dangerous. Despite what state rules are regarding merging onto freeways/highways/tollways/etc., a car really should be doing the speed of the other cars on the road at the merge point, otherwise all kinds of bad things can and do happen. I drive a lot, and the pokey cars merging are terrible for everyone involved at the point of merging.
- bradlys 7y ago
  9 seconds is plenty. The issue is that most drivers in those cars don't floor it to get onto onramps. So, 0-60 goes from 9 seconds to 20-30 seconds because they just refuse to push the pedal down further.
- everdrive 7y ago
  This is easily possible with a 9 second 0-60 if the on ramps are built properly. I have a Ford Fiesta, and it's lucky to hit 0-60 in 9 seconds. I always make sure I'm at highway speed before I merge.
- Hamuko 7y ago
  >0-60 in 9 seconds is not only terrible, it is dangerous. This is a downright laughable statement. My car does 0-100 km/h in about 8-9 seconds. Plenty fast. In fact, I'm not really encountering any road users that accelerate faster than I do. No issues with merging, no issues with overtakes, nothing. Here's someone joining the Autobahn with the same engine and gearbox as me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiXwbbITGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiXwbbITGQ Please watch and observe at how undramatic this whole thing is.
  - natch 7y ago
    No issues you're aware of. I see a lot of blithely self-unaware tailgaters who seem to fear hanging back because (I guess, from personal experience not as a tailgater but as someone who has driven ICE cars) that they'll have trouble catching up again if they give a little space.
    - 7y ago
akira2501 7y ago
> That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's The F-150 FX4 truck I'm driving lately has a "sport mode" that completely changes the character of the acceleration and the "pedal feel" when driving. Why couldn't Mazda do the same thing? > many people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive driving. I feel like those two factors aren't actually mutually inclusive. > cars is tuned to the characteristics the designers want, Why does that have to be the case? We allow customization and control of every other device in our lives, why not EV cars?
- cestith 7y ago
  They do on my gas CX-5 - a sport/normal mode fore the power curve and also a partly manual shifting mode or I can leave it in drive.
bitexploder 7y ago
Make it a simple setting users can activate... Tesla's default is full power acceleration, but you can toggle it to be really sedate. Mazda could have easily done that. More proof how far traditional auto manufacturers are behind Tesla. Tesla is a software company that happens to make cars. Mazda is a car company that has to write software.
- mikestew 7y ago
  Umm, the Leaf had similar settings before the Model S came out. Something, something reality distortion field.
seltzered_ 7y ago
Yeah. I don't understand why this article was written with a negative tone. There's been a number of high-end EV crashes documented where they've rammed into homes and businesses, while it's unknown if they're sudden unintended acceleration issues I think it's great to hear other manufacturers are likely considering the human factors issues.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  Well, if average human reaction time is a significant portion of the time it take for a car to get to 60 mph, then it would be hard to see why accidents wouldn't increase. Your foot slips and at least the car is totalled. It's not like high powered gas cars and motorcycles don't have this problem, with people who are not 80 and senile. People make jokes about Mustangs crashing at Cars & Coffee. People make videos of idiots in Lamborghinis crashing because they tried to do a burnout.
toss1 7y ago
Au contraire, I'd say there is an issue here (as someone who's both owned and raced BMWs and Mazdas in various series) Mazda specifically markets themselves as fun to drive - the whole "zoom-zoom" thing They put huge effort into making the driving dynamics both feel good and work well. Even the SUVs have a [Sport] mode toggle switch next to the shift lever that changes various shifting, suspension, and engine parameters for a different feel and performance profile. It is no surprise that Mazda thought about this in depth and decided that the default should be to feel like a regular combustion engine/gearbox. What is surprising, especially since it's available in other cars, is that that they do not seem to have included a Sport Mode, whereby a driver could access all the available performance. Having both the default and sport mode would definitely make me more likely to consider the car, vs. the ICE-like mode only. (also a bit surprising that the article never mentions asking Mazda about this option)
ksec 7y ago
I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet. The mostly likely reason for doing so is insurance. By modelling it after some very good "Zoom Zoom" Mazda driving characteristic, there is a higher probability it might fall into similar profile for insurance. One of the problem with Tesla is its fast acceleration dramatically increases its rate of accident. To the point where some insurance company are no longer accepting it and Tesla had to insure it on their own.
erikpukinskis 7y ago
Why do you suspect there are 160+ comments on this thread if, as you say, it’s a non issue?

by jmull 7y ago

izzydata 7y ago

I bet it also saves battery so they can advertise a higher number of miles.

cronix 7y ago
Yes, charges last longer and the battery degrades slower with lower peak discharges. The same with charging too, though, but most people want to charge as fast as possible.
cptskippy 7y ago
Most EVs have at least 2 modes you can configure. Many ICE vehicles have similar modes. The Nissan Leaf has an "Eco" button that changes the acceleration curve and some models have a Hill Mode toggle on the Shifter that affects the regenerative braking characteristics.
pdpi 7y ago
I find it unlikely, but if that is actually so, it would be an entirely reasonable tradeoff to make.

me_me_me 7y ago

Have switch for a normal mode and sports mode - solved.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Perhaps “chill” and “standard” modes.
- bitexploder 7y ago
  Crazy talk. Cars can have software controlled settings? Maybe you could start a car company and name it after a famous inventor or something. This seems like a real idea.
kulahan 7y ago
I've got a gas Mazda and it already has that. It would be strange to step into the EV version and NOT see one, honestly.

cptskippy 7y ago

> The author of the article criticizes the decision because it makes the car less fun Isn't "fun" what Mazda is known for? Their "Zoom Zoom" campaign ran for 14 years on the premise that Mazdas are more fun to drive. Now they're intentionally making them less fun?

eloff 7y ago
Yeah, it's a very odd choice from Mazda specifically for this reason.
empath75 7y ago
An electric Miata seems like a no brainer.
- magila 7y ago
  One of the big selling points of the Miata is it's light weight. Mazda has gone to pretty extreme lengths (for such a low priced car) to keep the weight down. A heavy battery wouldn't fit with that at all.
  - Spare_account 7y ago
    The selling point of the Miata is the handling. If they can re-create the agility (cornering) of the internal combustion Miata, the weight is secondary.
    - otherme123 7y ago
      The agility can only be done with a fine tunning of weight vs power. Mazda Miata sacrifices pure power, and thus max speed, to get "fun". If you add weight to a car you get more inertia, killing the handling and the fun. This is know since forever. Read the history of Karajan and his Porsche. He wanted a fun and sporty car tailored to him, but he didn't ask for more power. He requested less weight, and they even removed the radio, the back seats and the door handlers to get there. The only way to get the cornering and fun of the ICE Miata is to get a EV Miata that weights about the same. Then get the 50%/50% weight distribution (this is easy with EV) and there you go.

olyjohn 7y ago

Exactly. If someone is buying a compact CUV, they are probably looking for 4 doors, a hatchback, and a high ride height. Not really a vehicle that most people look to for fun. Not to mention, reducing the torque output probably also saves a few electrons and extends the range a bit.

lowdose 7y ago

It's about the missed metaphor. Before Tesla EV = not a car. Tesla proved EV can have a Ferrari like acceleration and hence EV = car. It isn't always about UX. Sometimes you have to prove another point which Tesla did. Nobody at the traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla so consumers feel safe to buy a Tesla. That was a major point in the buying decision of average consumers and probably is why the cybertruck looks as safe as a tank.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
This is also why Musk sent a team with a Model S (tri motor Plaid mode) to the Nurburgring track and built a Supercharger there. Appearance, status, and signaling matter to consumers. It’s not good enough to be good enough. Tesla has to show they can be the best choice (and arguably, they have shown that).
- lowdose 7y ago
  Exactly. Its also why Elon comes up with lines like a car driver is an elevator operator and owning a traditional ICE car is like owning a horse. This gives everybody the tools to effectually spread the word via word of mouth. It is an under appreciated part of technology marketing that is extremely important to make a product succeed. Hence that is the part Docker was got right.
jacquesm 7y ago
> Nobody at the traffic light made & makes fun of a Tesla > consumers feel safe to buy a Tesla That's a bit of a stretch. First of all, why would anybody in a supercar make fun of a Tesla, they're not aimed at the same market. Consumers feel perfectly safe to buy a Prius or Leaf and neither of those have Tesla like acceleration, and don't need it either. People making fun of other people because of the vehicles they drive are just insecure. If you really think that the acceleration characteristics of a vehicle is what sells your average car then you're mistaken, most people simply need transportation and don't want to do drag races in traffic.
- lr 7y ago

misterbwong 7y ago

Agree on this one. This is probably more about Mazda's wanting to optimize the driving experience than about talking down EV's or pushing fuel cell as the author implies. FTA: I know that Mazda likes to tune their cars for a specific driving feel, but I refuse to believe they couldn’t work the fun acceleration of EVs into their driving feeling. Seems like they did exactly what the author is asking. Looking at Mazda's lineup, their core philosophy revolves around driver experience and feel (zoom-zoom) so it makes a lot of sense that they tune (down in this case) their EV's to match what they feel is the best experience for a car.

NeutronStar 7y ago
How about they just provide the option to switch between "sport" and "normal" modes...
jandrese 7y ago
I don't know why that other post is dead. Having a "sport" mode that changes the acceleration profile for those few times when people really want it seems like a no-brainer solution here. It's entirely a software fix, and something people are already familiar with in cars. This should be a non-issue.
- dredds 7y ago
  True that software upgrades are a new paradigm exemplified by Tesla, but potentially also monetized (appified), so a skeptical person might think these add-on "features" will increasingly become ongoing revenue streams, as with our driving data, or privacy thereof.

torgoguys 7y ago

Agree. Also, if you click through to the underlying article where the quote comes from you find that Mazda engineers were being very conscious of the total environmental impact when designing their EV. (Let's set aside their claim about the EV vs. diesels for now). Keeping people from spending an enormous number of electrons to accelerate a bit quicker falls within this design philosophy. Even that that isn't the reason quoted in the article, I bet it was a factor.

natch 7y ago
It would be mistaken for these engineers to think that something that leads people to pass on their offering and instead choose an ICE car would be better for environmental impact. Better acceleration may use more power, but if it means people buy EVs instead of ICE cars, then it is helping the goal.

lr 7y ago

0-60 in 9 seconds is not only terrible, it is dangerous. Despite what state rules are regarding merging onto freeways/highways/tollways/etc., a car really should be doing the speed of the other cars on the road at the merge point, otherwise all kinds of bad things can and do happen. I drive a lot, and the pokey cars merging are terrible for everyone involved at the point of merging.

bradlys 7y ago
9 seconds is plenty. The issue is that most drivers in those cars don't floor it to get onto onramps. So, 0-60 goes from 9 seconds to 20-30 seconds because they just refuse to push the pedal down further.
everdrive 7y ago
This is easily possible with a 9 second 0-60 if the on ramps are built properly. I have a Ford Fiesta, and it's lucky to hit 0-60 in 9 seconds. I always make sure I'm at highway speed before I merge.
Hamuko 7y ago
>0-60 in 9 seconds is not only terrible, it is dangerous. This is a downright laughable statement. My car does 0-100 km/h in about 8-9 seconds. Plenty fast. In fact, I'm not really encountering any road users that accelerate faster than I do. No issues with merging, no issues with overtakes, nothing. Here's someone joining the Autobahn with the same engine and gearbox as me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiXwbbITGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUiXwbbITGQ Please watch and observe at how undramatic this whole thing is.
- natch 7y ago
  No issues you're aware of. I see a lot of blithely self-unaware tailgaters who seem to fear hanging back because (I guess, from personal experience not as a tailgater but as someone who has driven ICE cars) that they'll have trouble catching up again if they give a little space.
  - 7y ago

akira2501 7y ago

> That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's The F-150 FX4 truck I'm driving lately has a "sport mode" that completely changes the character of the acceleration and the "pedal feel" when driving. Why couldn't Mazda do the same thing? > many people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive driving. I feel like those two factors aren't actually mutually inclusive. > cars is tuned to the characteristics the designers want, Why does that have to be the case? We allow customization and control of every other device in our lives, why not EV cars?

cestith 7y ago
They do on my gas CX-5 - a sport/normal mode fore the power curve and also a partly manual shifting mode or I can leave it in drive.

bitexploder 7y ago

Make it a simple setting users can activate... Tesla's default is full power acceleration, but you can toggle it to be really sedate. Mazda could have easily done that. More proof how far traditional auto manufacturers are behind Tesla. Tesla is a software company that happens to make cars. Mazda is a car company that has to write software.

mikestew 7y ago
Umm, the Leaf had similar settings before the Model S came out. Something, something reality distortion field.

seltzered_ 7y ago

Yeah. I don't understand why this article was written with a negative tone. There's been a number of high-end EV crashes documented where they've rammed into homes and businesses, while it's unknown if they're sudden unintended acceleration issues I think it's great to hear other manufacturers are likely considering the human factors issues.

perl4ever 7y ago
Well, if average human reaction time is a significant portion of the time it take for a car to get to 60 mph, then it would be hard to see why accidents wouldn't increase. Your foot slips and at least the car is totalled. It's not like high powered gas cars and motorcycles don't have this problem, with people who are not 80 and senile. People make jokes about Mustangs crashing at Cars & Coffee. People make videos of idiots in Lamborghinis crashing because they tried to do a burnout.

toss1 7y ago

Au contraire, I'd say there is an issue here (as someone who's both owned and raced BMWs and Mazdas in various series) Mazda specifically markets themselves as fun to drive - the whole "zoom-zoom" thing They put huge effort into making the driving dynamics both feel good and work well. Even the SUVs have a [Sport] mode toggle switch next to the shift lever that changes various shifting, suspension, and engine parameters for a different feel and performance profile. It is no surprise that Mazda thought about this in depth and decided that the default should be to feel like a regular combustion engine/gearbox. What is surprising, especially since it's available in other cars, is that that they do not seem to have included a Sport Mode, whereby a driver could access all the available performance. Having both the default and sport mode would definitely make me more likely to consider the car, vs. the ICE-like mode only. (also a bit surprising that the article never mentions asking Mazda about this option)

ksec 7y ago

I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet. The mostly likely reason for doing so is insurance. By modelling it after some very good "Zoom Zoom" Mazda driving characteristic, there is a higher probability it might fall into similar profile for insurance. One of the problem with Tesla is its fast acceleration dramatically increases its rate of accident. To the point where some insurance company are no longer accepting it and Tesla had to insure it on their own.

erikpukinskis 7y ago

Why do you suspect there are 160+ comments on this thread if, as you say, it’s a non issue?