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Mazda made its first EV artificially slower 'to feel more like a gas car'

109 points by prostoalex 7y ago

Steltek 7y ago
I don't drive an electric car but my first thought was that, wouldn't this extend the battery range as well? The talk about being more powerful than gas is just a clever marketing ploy.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  > The talk about being more powerful than gas is just a clever marketing ploy. You're saying horsepower and torque are just numbers used for marketing?
  - majormajor 7y ago
    It's been that way for a while. Horsepower and torque numbers on mainstream vehicles - let alone "performance" cars regularly pushing out 500+hp now - lost much practical relevance to 99% of road driving situations even for "sporty" drivers about a decade ago.
    - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
      > lost much practical relevance to 99% of road driving situations You don't buy a sports car to drive to the grocery store unless it's a status symbol (which is likely the great majority of sports car owners). But there are plenty of people that still like to actually take their cars to the track. I know because I'm one of them. The majority of people that want a nicer car to drive around the suburbs will opt for luxury over sporty, because the Porsche GT2 RS is really not comfortable for daily driving. However, the Audi A8 is incredibly luxurious and very enjoyable for anyone that isn't in a hurry. If you really think nobody buys a Tesla because of the acceleration, then you don't know that many Tesla drivers. I personally know at least 3 people who bought a Tesla because it was cheaper than buying a supercar for the same 0-60 time.
      - majormajor 7y ago
        They're taking their Teslas (or hypothetical supercars) to the track? > You don't buy a sports car to drive to the grocery store unless it's a status symbol (which is likely the great majority of sports car owners). You seem to agree on the core thing there: status symbol. Marketing. Gotta pump out bigger numbers to protect the status. Look at M or AMG cars now vs 30 years ago.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    No one in the world _needs_ to do 0-60 in less than 5 seconds in a family car/public roads. These perfs aren't even sustainable more than a few times in a row so it 100% is a marketing thing.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      It isnt about max speed, in which case i would agree with you, higher max speeds are not useful on public roads. More acceleration is always beneficial in cases where you have to perform a safety maneuver or evade something. Imagine, you are going in the leftmost lane, there is a car a bit too close to you behind (but still fine), in front of you there are no cars, but you aren’t speeding up because speed limits (and you just want to go at a comfortable pace). Someone in the lane to the right isn’t paying attention and trying to merge right into you, you honk, but it will be too late to react for the offending driver. Your only escape here in a slow acceleration car is to break and cause the car behind you to rear-end you, causing a collision and tons of potential injuries. In a car with fast acceleration, you can quickly speed up and that car will (recklessly) merge, all while avoiding an accident. And that’s not even talking about stuff like avoiding something on the road or stuff falling out of a truck bed in front of you or just absolutely any kind of an avoidance safety maneuver.
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        > higher max speeds are not useful on public roads. Not legal=/=not useful, unless you mean higher than what most nice cars can currently do.
        filoleg 7y ago
        oh no, I agree with you. I was just responding to the parent, cause they seemed to imply that the max speed hype is of very limited use on the roads, with which I agree, as opposed to acceleration.
        toast0 7y ago
        Most of my vehicles have been able to do more than 100 mph on the highway, but I don't know how useful that actually is. There's just very few times it is reasonable and prudent to drive that fast in California.
- forwhomst 7y ago
  It does, yes. I always drive my electric Honda in its "eco mode", which only changes the response to throttle position. I get noticeably more range in that mode. In the "sport mode" it will just about rip the axles off at the slightest provocation, and the range is much worse.
- filoleg 7y ago
  I am not sure if I understood your comment correctly, in case not, feel free to correct. A torque in an electric car is imo “a marketing ploy” only until a person thinking that actually tries one of those cars. I can assure you that even the cheapest model 3 has acceleration and torque that feels insane compared to any gas car I have ever tried (including stuff like a new Mustang GT with a V8). You dont need to be into cars at all to feel the massive difference, it isn’t like an audiophile thing where you have to be into it to be able to tell the small differences. The best comparison i can give you is that if you press the pedal all the way, your head jerks back and your stomach gets that exact same physical feeling you would get on a dropping rollercoaster. Sidenote: same thing with electric motorcycles btw. Even gas motorcycles already have really fast acceleration comparable to some electric cars, but an electric motorcycle is something else. Test drove a Zero recently, and the difference between it and a gas bike felt just as massive as going from a gas car to an electric car. Almost like a personal low-speed teleportation device.
  - barrkel 7y ago
    Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale? I ask because I used to own a Brutale (I recently switched to an S1000R), and I noticed a guy on a Zero at a traffic light one day on my commute; he was fast enough off the line, but his shoulders got no more than 50cm or so ahead of me before he was behind me - I never saw the back of his bike. My Brutale 920 had ~40hp less than my S1000R, but it felt faster in some ways because it had more jerk - the acceleration kicked in sooner. I kept doing accidental wheelies off the line the first week I owned it. The S1000R is faster overall, but due to its smoothness, ride by wire throttle etc. it needs to be treated harshly with bigger throttle inputs to get the same feeling of responsiveness. I write this because it's not just a gas bike's power, but design choices that affect how fast it feels.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      >Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale? No, I should've specified that the bikes I usually ride are all around 600cc and below. I am totally aware that the discrepancy between top tier ICE motorcycles and electric ones isn't as massive as between top tier ICE cars and electric ones.
- davescrabs 7y ago
  Not really. That's ICE-thinking where more powerful engines tend to be inherently less efficient for the application. A 5.0L V8 takes more power to spin the engine. It weighs a lot more. It requires a heaver transmission, etc. So having the ability to go very fast costs a lot in terms of efficiency. Electric doesn't work that way. A more powerful electric motor has a very similar efficiency to weaker one. It might be marginally heavier, but the weight impact is nothing compared to ICE. Having more available torque has almost no impact on efficiency / range. What does have an impact, which applies to both ICE and electric, is how the driver chooses to drive. When given the opportunity to use more power, the driver may choose to do so. However, then the question becomes: Should you sell what buyer's want? I think the main issue is a fast EV would make Mazda's ICE cars feel slow. When customers can't afford the EV, and are disappointed with the cars they can afford, Mazda is afraid they'll walk off the lot. By keeping the cars more similar they can make the ICE cars seem better.
psv1 7y ago
Reminds of the shuffle function on iPods which had to be made less random in order to appear more natural to users.
- loudmax 7y ago
  My father built a picture frame display out of a Raspberry Pi and and old LCD monitor. It shows collections of photos in random order (that is, photos are grouped into directories and it pics a directory at random and displays those in sequence, then pics the next directory at random). He says he often gets the sense that some photo sets seem to show up more frequently than others. Helped him program the Pi, and I'm confident it really is random. Our brains are optimized to detect patterns, we'll pick out patterns where there aren't any. It doesn't feel random but it is. Also, true randomness isn't optimal for the picture frame display or the iPod. True randomness does annoying things sometimes like pick the same thing twice in a row even though there are hundreds to choose from. Apple had the right idea here.
ogre_codes 7y ago
Makes me wonder if they incorporate the feel of a laggy automatic transmission as well. Or perhaps they should force you to stop at a gas station once a week? Also... you have to fill up an oil reservoir once a quarter which slowly drips onto your driveway! This is truly bizarre.
- oliveshell 7y ago
  It’s really not that bizarre. The article just describes a pedal-response curve; these are set by engineers for every EV, even a Tesla. Some are more aggressive than others. “Slower” here probably isn’t appreciably slower at all, practically. It’s probably the difference between accelerating fast and accelerating so fast you feel physically ill. Mazda is very good at making cars that feel nice to drive.
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    "Slower" in this case is 0-60 in 9 seconds which is under-powered mini-van sluggish. That is not "nice to drive". I get that we don't need 0-60 in 4 seconds like Tesla wants to push, but limiting it to 9 second seems daft.
- jacquesm 7y ago
  Modern day automatic transmissions are anything but laggy and typically outperform average (and quite a few not so average) drivers by a very comfortable margin. They get better mileage too...
  - ogre_codes 7y ago
    Modern day engines are capable of snappy acceleration too.
- powowow 7y ago
  This wouldn't be terribly surprising. My wife's internal combustion car has a CVT that emulates an automatic with gears and shift points, presumably because that felt more natural to drivers than having the engine just run at optimal RPM.
forwhomst 7y ago
Every EV is "artificially slower" than it could be and the response to driver inputs is a totally arbitrary design decision.
- tachyonbeam 7y ago
  Not entirely arbitrary. Don't get me wrong, I like responsiveness, but extreme acceleration is necessarily less safe. Slower acceleration makes a vehicle more predictable, not just for the driver but for other vehicles and pedestrians too.
  - bloody-crow 7y ago
    Certain road situations require faster accelerations to get out of safely and while you can employ safety techniques and driving style to avoid getting into them, they still do exist. Tesla Model S Performance with its 0-60 under 3 seconds can still accelerate and drive very slowly and smoothly if the driver chooses to do so, while Mazda with artificially "slowed" acceleration can never go fast. At the end of the day, the car with more artificial limitations gives you less options and is inherently less safe.
    - forwhomst 7y ago
      The article does not support your conclusion. It may be that you just have to press the pedal more to get a given amount of torque.
- gnode 7y ago
  The decision is usually guided by practical limitations, such as grip, or the tolerance of parts. Limiting torque to improve acceleration, prevent skidding off the road, or not burn out the motor is a reasonable motivation in-line with the interests of the driver. Limiting torque to make your car feel like a less capable one is not. That said, I can imagine some people may want a familiar driving experience, although it would make sense to make that a configurable option, e.g. 'sport mode' vs 'comfort mode'.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
jmull 7y ago
There isn't really an issue here. Mazda tuned the acceleration of their EV to feel like a conventional car. That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's who aren't especially keen on zipping around. The author of the article criticizes the decision because it makes the car less fun, apparently unaware that many people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive driving. Not to mention, the acceleration profile of conventional cars is tuned to the characteristics the designers want, too, and they aren't all tuned for "fun".
- izzydata 7y ago
  I bet it also saves battery so they can advertise a higher number of miles.
  - cronix 7y ago
    Yes, charges last longer and the battery degrades slower with lower peak discharges. The same with charging too, though, but most people want to charge as fast as possible.
  - cptskippy 7y ago
    Most EVs have at least 2 modes you can configure. Many ICE vehicles have similar modes. The Nissan Leaf has an "Eco" button that changes the acceleration curve and some models have a Hill Mode toggle on the Shifter that affects the regenerative braking characteristics.
  - pdpi 7y ago
    I find it unlikely, but if that is actually so, it would be an entirely reasonable tradeoff to make.
- me_me_me 7y ago
  Have switch for a normal mode and sports mode - solved.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
gok 7y ago
Reminds me of Sony purposely crippling their MP3 players so they didn't cut too much into their CD player business and album sales.
blackearl 7y ago
Sounds like it's not slower overall but slower acceleration. Would be a good optional feature, since I'd imagine that the torque of an EV could feel like a sharp jerk, causing some discomfort or motion sickness. I have family that drive like that and I can't deal with their style.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > I have family that drive like that and I can't deal with their style. I've always called those people "digital drivers". It seems they're always either actively accelerating or actively braking, never anything in between.
  - blackearl 7y ago
    I've always heard it as a "leadfoot"
    - t-writescode 7y ago
      Leadfoot is people who go fast. Digital driver is (speed limit 50): go 49-51, brake back to 49, accelerate back to 51, brake back to 49 Not exactly like that, but approximately. Little ‘letting off the gas’.
alfanick 7y ago
This article is very biased: the author clearly loves high torque that move to electric motor gives by default. Mazda did something very smart here - emulate current days experience, so presumably ordinary people swap to ordinary EV, because "it's a thing now".* * - it's a thing now - aka goverments give subsidiares, aka it may be less CO2, it's cleaner, etc... is it? I don't know. I don't care. I do understand Mazda's move though.
- WhompingWindows 7y ago
  electrek is basically a Tesla/EV bull, they own shares in TSLA and get tons of free EV-kickbacks and perks... you should look at everything on that site with a skeptical eye.
  - rasz 7y ago
    When talking about electrek kickbacks you should always start with half a $million in roadsters https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-killed-referral-program/ https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-killed-re...
- mdszy 7y ago
  >goverments give subsidiares 1. pretty sure you mean subsidies 2. not all, wisconsin actually charges an extra tax if you drive an EV
  - bagacrap 7y ago
    That fact about Wisconsin seems crazy so I looked it up and it's $100/yr which I can only assume is meant to recapture lost gas tax revenue. Hardly in the same ballpark as the federal subsidy which is $2500-7500.
    - mdszy 7y ago
      yes, that is the reasoning, doesn't make it any less bullshit
- 7y ago
exabrial 7y ago
Wanted to explain the reason for my flag. * The article presents a controversial, click-bait title * The article contents intentionally misrepresents very selective and incomplete quotes without surrounding context * The article is low on factual content, high on opinion, while representing itself otherwise.
Marsymars 7y ago
I don’t really like these moves, but it seems pretty standard on EVs. Maybe someone can correct me (I couldn’t find a confirming article via Google) but IIRC Teslas apply a slight regenerative braking effect when coasting to more closely match the feel of coasting in an ICE, even though it costs efficiency.
- njarboe 7y ago
  I think if we were starting from scratch that having just one pedal for velocity/acceleration control in a vehicle would be better than having a gas pedal and break pedal. It is nice to have the vehicle slow down when you let up on the gas pedal and not have to move over to the break pedal. My Honda 550 motorcycle was much more fun to drive hard in the country than my Kawasaki 650. With the Honda the engine breaking was sufficient all most all of the time while on the Kawasaki I would have to engage the break before most curves.
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    From a UX perspective a single pedal might be better, but from an efficiency perspective, I'd rather have manual control over acceleration and braking. Heck, given the option, I'd try a car with three separate controls for standard brakes, regenerative braking and acceleration. I expect it would be a lateral move in complexity compared to the stick shift I currently drive.
    - njarboe 7y ago
      A single pedal would be manual control over acceleration and braking. All the way off is full breaking (or stopped), half way down is coasting, and all the way down is full acceleration. Society could never transition to such a control system, but I would love to try it. If Tesla's pedals are completely drive-by-wire, they could pretty easily set things up to run that way.
      - davidgould 7y ago
        Tesla’s have this as part of the selectable “Hold Mode” since an update a few weeks ago. Let off the pedal completely and it slows rapidly to a complete and very smooth stop. It’s surprisingly easy to get used to and one can drive for days without ever touching the brake pedal. It also makes the car slightly more efficient. The brake pedal in Tesla’s controls only the friction brakes, the accelerator controls acceleration and deceleration via the motor(s).
KorematsuFred 7y ago
Very thankful to Mazda for this change. I love the instant acceleration as a driver but I get headaches and motion sickness as a passenger. If I am in a Tesla I specifically ask person to accelerate slowly.
throw7 7y ago
"We increased the 0-60 time to 9 seconds so it feels like you're in a gas car." - Mazda mmm... ok.
potta_coffee 7y ago
The Miata is one of the most fun cars to drive, and it's intentionally underpowered. Only about 150hp.
sxates 7y ago
For those defending this decision as rational, are you aware the expected 0-60 time is 9 seconds? That's not just a little slower for comfort. That's pitiful for any car. I am not sure I've ever owned a car that slow. For comparison, Mazda's full size SUV, the CX9, does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. 9 seconds is more on par with the Mazda 2, a tiny sub-compact. We need EVs to take over for the health of our planet, and the way we do that is by making them superior to gas cars, not nerfing them so they aren't competitive with them. The average buyer doesn't need a 4s 0-60 time but quick acceleration eliminates objections and perceptions that EVs aren't as good as gas.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  "Car and Driver magazine performed a comparison between the 2010 Honda Insight and the 2010 Toyota Prius. In this test, the Insight achieved 0–60 mph in 10.3 seconds (Prius, 10.0 seconds)" 9s 0-60 is 10% quicker than a 2010 Prius or Insight. Clearly there's a market for this level of acceleration.
  - sxates 7y ago
    Those are some of the slowest cars on the road today, that sacrifice everything for fuel efficiency. Is that the bar for an EV? We can't do better than that?
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      10% quicker is better. It's not like the Prius has been a commercial failure, I'm really not sure what it is you're complaining about. Not everyone prioritizes speed and acceleration in a vehicle.
- toast0 7y ago
  My first vehicle is quoted at 13.3 seconds 0-60; by the time I was driving it (it was made before I was born), I'm sure it didn't even get that level of performance. This was never an issue in driving around the Los Angeles area; the performance was consistent and predictable, which is all you really need.
Animats 7y ago
Maybe they just don't want to fool with the cooling issues. Tesla has to spend a lot of money on cooling features, in motor, battery, and electronics, to get that acceleration.
MisterTea 7y ago
Worst case offer a way to disable it or adjust the acceleration gain.
fortran77 7y ago
You want the car to feel familiar. So they have the accelerator pedal have a similar performance curve to that of a gas car. This way people can sit it it and control it they way they expect it to perform. Makes perfect sense.
btian 7y ago
Ironic coming from a company with tagline "zoom zoom"
fbnlsr 7y ago
It should be noted that Electrek is clearly biased. From wikipedia: > Their positive coverage of Tesla has been criticised by some automotive journalists. Its main authors have disclosed ownership of Tesla stock, substantial profit from referrals to Tesla, and ownership of Tesla cars.
jojo2000 7y ago
Even if their disclosed reasoning seems a little light-headed, the consequences are real at a platform level, less acceleration means : - lower max(amperage) to deliver for battery pack (lowered specs) - longer-lasting battery pack at same energy capacity (strong accelerations consume lots of energy, and wear the battery) - reduced weight (critical parameter for higher km/energy) : - lighter motor (reduced max torque) - lighter brakes (because of lower max speed) - ... Low-tech solutions can sometimes be what people need. Solving the problem "go from point a to point b" in a safe, cost-efficient, and energy-efficient manner, is not a solved problem (yet).
KMnO4 7y ago
In ~2016 I drove a preproduction electric vehicle from a major manufacturer not known for making fast cars. It wasn’t a sports car, and it wasn’t even one of their high end models. But that thing was fast. When I drove the same car later (post production) it was noticeably slower. It seems that they had tuned the power controller to be more conservative. Honestly, the slower tuning is better. Electric motors can give instant power and lurch the car forward with little effort. My foot would become sore driving through the city, as I hovered it above the pedal and made micropresses to maintain speed. The new tuning (and gas engines in general) allow you quite a bit of leeway. Press the pedal twice as far as you should have, and you can slowly release it before the car gets ahead of you. Having a car that’s quick of the starting line is a lot of fun, but make that a mode. Smooth, slow, driving is just more comfortable.
pwellner 7y ago
They should also have made it artificially feel like it's shifting gears!
ryuukk_ 7y ago
oh i see, they do like NVIDIA they underpower their vehicules so they can justify selling "fake higher end" at a much higher price that's illegal

109 points by prostoalex 7y ago

I don't drive an electric car but my first thought was that, wouldn't this extend the battery range as well? The talk about being more powerful than gas is just a clever marketing ploy.

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
> The talk about being more powerful than gas is just a clever marketing ploy. You're saying horsepower and torque are just numbers used for marketing?
- majormajor 7y ago
  It's been that way for a while. Horsepower and torque numbers on mainstream vehicles - let alone "performance" cars regularly pushing out 500+hp now - lost much practical relevance to 99% of road driving situations even for "sporty" drivers about a decade ago.
  - OnlineGladiator 7y ago
    > lost much practical relevance to 99% of road driving situations You don't buy a sports car to drive to the grocery store unless it's a status symbol (which is likely the great majority of sports car owners). But there are plenty of people that still like to actually take their cars to the track. I know because I'm one of them. The majority of people that want a nicer car to drive around the suburbs will opt for luxury over sporty, because the Porsche GT2 RS is really not comfortable for daily driving. However, the Audi A8 is incredibly luxurious and very enjoyable for anyone that isn't in a hurry. If you really think nobody buys a Tesla because of the acceleration, then you don't know that many Tesla drivers. I personally know at least 3 people who bought a Tesla because it was cheaper than buying a supercar for the same 0-60 time.
    - majormajor 7y ago
      They're taking their Teslas (or hypothetical supercars) to the track? > You don't buy a sports car to drive to the grocery store unless it's a status symbol (which is likely the great majority of sports car owners). You seem to agree on the core thing there: status symbol. Marketing. Gotta pump out bigger numbers to protect the status. Look at M or AMG cars now vs 30 years ago.
- lm28469 7y ago
  No one in the world _needs_ to do 0-60 in less than 5 seconds in a family car/public roads. These perfs aren't even sustainable more than a few times in a row so it 100% is a marketing thing.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    It isnt about max speed, in which case i would agree with you, higher max speeds are not useful on public roads. More acceleration is always beneficial in cases where you have to perform a safety maneuver or evade something. Imagine, you are going in the leftmost lane, there is a car a bit too close to you behind (but still fine), in front of you there are no cars, but you aren’t speeding up because speed limits (and you just want to go at a comfortable pace). Someone in the lane to the right isn’t paying attention and trying to merge right into you, you honk, but it will be too late to react for the offending driver. Your only escape here in a slow acceleration car is to break and cause the car behind you to rear-end you, causing a collision and tons of potential injuries. In a car with fast acceleration, you can quickly speed up and that car will (recklessly) merge, all while avoiding an accident. And that’s not even talking about stuff like avoiding something on the road or stuff falling out of a truck bed in front of you or just absolutely any kind of an avoidance safety maneuver.
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      > higher max speeds are not useful on public roads. Not legal=/=not useful, unless you mean higher than what most nice cars can currently do.
      - filoleg 7y ago
        oh no, I agree with you. I was just responding to the parent, cause they seemed to imply that the max speed hype is of very limited use on the roads, with which I agree, as opposed to acceleration.
      - toast0 7y ago
        Most of my vehicles have been able to do more than 100 mph on the highway, but I don't know how useful that actually is. There's just very few times it is reasonable and prudent to drive that fast in California.
forwhomst 7y ago
It does, yes. I always drive my electric Honda in its "eco mode", which only changes the response to throttle position. I get noticeably more range in that mode. In the "sport mode" it will just about rip the axles off at the slightest provocation, and the range is much worse.
filoleg 7y ago
I am not sure if I understood your comment correctly, in case not, feel free to correct. A torque in an electric car is imo “a marketing ploy” only until a person thinking that actually tries one of those cars. I can assure you that even the cheapest model 3 has acceleration and torque that feels insane compared to any gas car I have ever tried (including stuff like a new Mustang GT with a V8). You dont need to be into cars at all to feel the massive difference, it isn’t like an audiophile thing where you have to be into it to be able to tell the small differences. The best comparison i can give you is that if you press the pedal all the way, your head jerks back and your stomach gets that exact same physical feeling you would get on a dropping rollercoaster. Sidenote: same thing with electric motorcycles btw. Even gas motorcycles already have really fast acceleration comparable to some electric cars, but an electric motorcycle is something else. Test drove a Zero recently, and the difference between it and a gas bike felt just as massive as going from a gas car to an electric car. Almost like a personal low-speed teleportation device.
- barrkel 7y ago
  Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale? I ask because I used to own a Brutale (I recently switched to an S1000R), and I noticed a guy on a Zero at a traffic light one day on my commute; he was fast enough off the line, but his shoulders got no more than 50cm or so ahead of me before he was behind me - I never saw the back of his bike. My Brutale 920 had ~40hp less than my S1000R, but it felt faster in some ways because it had more jerk - the acceleration kicked in sooner. I kept doing accidental wheelies off the line the first week I owned it. The S1000R is faster overall, but due to its smoothness, ride by wire throttle etc. it needs to be treated harshly with bigger throttle inputs to get the same feeling of responsiveness. I write this because it's not just a gas bike's power, but design choices that affect how fast it feels.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    >Have you ridden aggressively tuned bikes like MV Agusta's Brutale? No, I should've specified that the bikes I usually ride are all around 600cc and below. I am totally aware that the discrepancy between top tier ICE motorcycles and electric ones isn't as massive as between top tier ICE cars and electric ones.
davescrabs 7y ago
Not really. That's ICE-thinking where more powerful engines tend to be inherently less efficient for the application. A 5.0L V8 takes more power to spin the engine. It weighs a lot more. It requires a heaver transmission, etc. So having the ability to go very fast costs a lot in terms of efficiency. Electric doesn't work that way. A more powerful electric motor has a very similar efficiency to weaker one. It might be marginally heavier, but the weight impact is nothing compared to ICE. Having more available torque has almost no impact on efficiency / range. What does have an impact, which applies to both ICE and electric, is how the driver chooses to drive. When given the opportunity to use more power, the driver may choose to do so. However, then the question becomes: Should you sell what buyer's want? I think the main issue is a fast EV would make Mazda's ICE cars feel slow. When customers can't afford the EV, and are disappointed with the cars they can afford, Mazda is afraid they'll walk off the lot. By keeping the cars more similar they can make the ICE cars seem better.

psv1 7y ago

Reminds of the shuffle function on iPods which had to be made less random in order to appear more natural to users.

loudmax 7y ago
My father built a picture frame display out of a Raspberry Pi and and old LCD monitor. It shows collections of photos in random order (that is, photos are grouped into directories and it pics a directory at random and displays those in sequence, then pics the next directory at random). He says he often gets the sense that some photo sets seem to show up more frequently than others. Helped him program the Pi, and I'm confident it really is random. Our brains are optimized to detect patterns, we'll pick out patterns where there aren't any. It doesn't feel random but it is. Also, true randomness isn't optimal for the picture frame display or the iPod. True randomness does annoying things sometimes like pick the same thing twice in a row even though there are hundreds to choose from. Apple had the right idea here.

ogre_codes 7y ago

Makes me wonder if they incorporate the feel of a laggy automatic transmission as well. Or perhaps they should force you to stop at a gas station once a week? Also... you have to fill up an oil reservoir once a quarter which slowly drips onto your driveway! This is truly bizarre.

oliveshell 7y ago
It’s really not that bizarre. The article just describes a pedal-response curve; these are set by engineers for every EV, even a Tesla. Some are more aggressive than others. “Slower” here probably isn’t appreciably slower at all, practically. It’s probably the difference between accelerating fast and accelerating so fast you feel physically ill. Mazda is very good at making cars that feel nice to drive.
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  "Slower" in this case is 0-60 in 9 seconds which is under-powered mini-van sluggish. That is not "nice to drive". I get that we don't need 0-60 in 4 seconds like Tesla wants to push, but limiting it to 9 second seems daft.
jacquesm 7y ago
Modern day automatic transmissions are anything but laggy and typically outperform average (and quite a few not so average) drivers by a very comfortable margin. They get better mileage too...
- ogre_codes 7y ago
  Modern day engines are capable of snappy acceleration too.
powowow 7y ago
This wouldn't be terribly surprising. My wife's internal combustion car has a CVT that emulates an automatic with gears and shift points, presumably because that felt more natural to drivers than having the engine just run at optimal RPM.

forwhomst 7y ago

Every EV is "artificially slower" than it could be and the response to driver inputs is a totally arbitrary design decision.

tachyonbeam 7y ago
Not entirely arbitrary. Don't get me wrong, I like responsiveness, but extreme acceleration is necessarily less safe. Slower acceleration makes a vehicle more predictable, not just for the driver but for other vehicles and pedestrians too.
- bloody-crow 7y ago
  Certain road situations require faster accelerations to get out of safely and while you can employ safety techniques and driving style to avoid getting into them, they still do exist. Tesla Model S Performance with its 0-60 under 3 seconds can still accelerate and drive very slowly and smoothly if the driver chooses to do so, while Mazda with artificially "slowed" acceleration can never go fast. At the end of the day, the car with more artificial limitations gives you less options and is inherently less safe.
  - forwhomst 7y ago
    The article does not support your conclusion. It may be that you just have to press the pedal more to get a given amount of torque.
gnode 7y ago
The decision is usually guided by practical limitations, such as grip, or the tolerance of parts. Limiting torque to improve acceleration, prevent skidding off the road, or not burn out the motor is a reasonable motivation in-line with the interests of the driver. Limiting torque to make your car feel like a less capable one is not. That said, I can imagine some people may want a familiar driving experience, although it would make sense to make that a configurable option, e.g. 'sport mode' vs 'comfort mode'.
ilikehurdles 7y ago

jmull 7y ago

There isn't really an issue here. Mazda tuned the acceleration of their EV to feel like a conventional car. That's probably good UX if your market target is first-time EV buyer's who aren't especially keen on zipping around. The author of the article criticizes the decision because it makes the car less fun, apparently unaware that many people aren't looking for fun in a car, and aren't interested in aggressive driving. Not to mention, the acceleration profile of conventional cars is tuned to the characteristics the designers want, too, and they aren't all tuned for "fun".

izzydata 7y ago
I bet it also saves battery so they can advertise a higher number of miles.
- cronix 7y ago
  Yes, charges last longer and the battery degrades slower with lower peak discharges. The same with charging too, though, but most people want to charge as fast as possible.
- cptskippy 7y ago
  Most EVs have at least 2 modes you can configure. Many ICE vehicles have similar modes. The Nissan Leaf has an "Eco" button that changes the acceleration curve and some models have a Hill Mode toggle on the Shifter that affects the regenerative braking characteristics.
- pdpi 7y ago
  I find it unlikely, but if that is actually so, it would be an entirely reasonable tradeoff to make.
me_me_me 7y ago
Have switch for a normal mode and sports mode - solved.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago

gok 7y ago

Reminds me of Sony purposely crippling their MP3 players so they didn't cut too much into their CD player business and album sales.

blackearl 7y ago

Sounds like it's not slower overall but slower acceleration. Would be a good optional feature, since I'd imagine that the torque of an EV could feel like a sharp jerk, causing some discomfort or motion sickness. I have family that drive like that and I can't deal with their style.

JohnFen 7y ago
> I have family that drive like that and I can't deal with their style. I've always called those people "digital drivers". It seems they're always either actively accelerating or actively braking, never anything in between.
- blackearl 7y ago
  I've always heard it as a "leadfoot"
  - t-writescode 7y ago
    Leadfoot is people who go fast. Digital driver is (speed limit 50): go 49-51, brake back to 49, accelerate back to 51, brake back to 49 Not exactly like that, but approximately. Little ‘letting off the gas’.

alfanick 7y ago

This article is very biased: the author clearly loves high torque that move to electric motor gives by default. Mazda did something very smart here - emulate current days experience, so presumably ordinary people swap to ordinary EV, because "it's a thing now".* * - it's a thing now - aka goverments give subsidiares, aka it may be less CO2, it's cleaner, etc... is it? I don't know. I don't care. I do understand Mazda's move though.

WhompingWindows 7y ago
electrek is basically a Tesla/EV bull, they own shares in TSLA and get tons of free EV-kickbacks and perks... you should look at everything on that site with a skeptical eye.
- rasz 7y ago
  When talking about electrek kickbacks you should always start with half a $million in roadsters https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-killed-referral-program/ https://electrek.co/2019/01/17/tesla-roadster-free-killed-re...
mdszy 7y ago
>goverments give subsidiares 1. pretty sure you mean subsidies 2. not all, wisconsin actually charges an extra tax if you drive an EV
- bagacrap 7y ago
  That fact about Wisconsin seems crazy so I looked it up and it's $100/yr which I can only assume is meant to recapture lost gas tax revenue. Hardly in the same ballpark as the federal subsidy which is $2500-7500.
  - mdszy 7y ago
    yes, that is the reasoning, doesn't make it any less bullshit
7y ago

exabrial 7y ago

Wanted to explain the reason for my flag. * The article presents a controversial, click-bait title * The article contents intentionally misrepresents very selective and incomplete quotes without surrounding context * The article is low on factual content, high on opinion, while representing itself otherwise.

Marsymars 7y ago

I don’t really like these moves, but it seems pretty standard on EVs. Maybe someone can correct me (I couldn’t find a confirming article via Google) but IIRC Teslas apply a slight regenerative braking effect when coasting to more closely match the feel of coasting in an ICE, even though it costs efficiency.

njarboe 7y ago
I think if we were starting from scratch that having just one pedal for velocity/acceleration control in a vehicle would be better than having a gas pedal and break pedal. It is nice to have the vehicle slow down when you let up on the gas pedal and not have to move over to the break pedal. My Honda 550 motorcycle was much more fun to drive hard in the country than my Kawasaki 650. With the Honda the engine breaking was sufficient all most all of the time while on the Kawasaki I would have to engage the break before most curves.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  From a UX perspective a single pedal might be better, but from an efficiency perspective, I'd rather have manual control over acceleration and braking. Heck, given the option, I'd try a car with three separate controls for standard brakes, regenerative braking and acceleration. I expect it would be a lateral move in complexity compared to the stick shift I currently drive.
  - njarboe 7y ago
    A single pedal would be manual control over acceleration and braking. All the way off is full breaking (or stopped), half way down is coasting, and all the way down is full acceleration. Society could never transition to such a control system, but I would love to try it. If Tesla's pedals are completely drive-by-wire, they could pretty easily set things up to run that way.
    - davidgould 7y ago
      Tesla’s have this as part of the selectable “Hold Mode” since an update a few weeks ago. Let off the pedal completely and it slows rapidly to a complete and very smooth stop. It’s surprisingly easy to get used to and one can drive for days without ever touching the brake pedal. It also makes the car slightly more efficient. The brake pedal in Tesla’s controls only the friction brakes, the accelerator controls acceleration and deceleration via the motor(s).

KorematsuFred 7y ago

Very thankful to Mazda for this change. I love the instant acceleration as a driver but I get headaches and motion sickness as a passenger. If I am in a Tesla I specifically ask person to accelerate slowly.

throw7 7y ago

"We increased the 0-60 time to 9 seconds so it feels like you're in a gas car." - Mazda mmm... ok.

potta_coffee 7y ago

The Miata is one of the most fun cars to drive, and it's intentionally underpowered. Only about 150hp.

sxates 7y ago

For those defending this decision as rational, are you aware the expected 0-60 time is 9 seconds? That's not just a little slower for comfort. That's pitiful for any car. I am not sure I've ever owned a car that slow. For comparison, Mazda's full size SUV, the CX9, does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds. 9 seconds is more on par with the Mazda 2, a tiny sub-compact. We need EVs to take over for the health of our planet, and the way we do that is by making them superior to gas cars, not nerfing them so they aren't competitive with them. The average buyer doesn't need a 4s 0-60 time but quick acceleration eliminates objections and perceptions that EVs aren't as good as gas.

newnewpdro 7y ago
"Car and Driver magazine performed a comparison between the 2010 Honda Insight and the 2010 Toyota Prius. In this test, the Insight achieved 0–60 mph in 10.3 seconds (Prius, 10.0 seconds)" 9s 0-60 is 10% quicker than a 2010 Prius or Insight. Clearly there's a market for this level of acceleration.
- sxates 7y ago
  Those are some of the slowest cars on the road today, that sacrifice everything for fuel efficiency. Is that the bar for an EV? We can't do better than that?
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    10% quicker is better. It's not like the Prius has been a commercial failure, I'm really not sure what it is you're complaining about. Not everyone prioritizes speed and acceleration in a vehicle.
toast0 7y ago
My first vehicle is quoted at 13.3 seconds 0-60; by the time I was driving it (it was made before I was born), I'm sure it didn't even get that level of performance. This was never an issue in driving around the Los Angeles area; the performance was consistent and predictable, which is all you really need.

Animats 7y ago

Maybe they just don't want to fool with the cooling issues. Tesla has to spend a lot of money on cooling features, in motor, battery, and electronics, to get that acceleration.

MisterTea 7y ago

Worst case offer a way to disable it or adjust the acceleration gain.

fortran77 7y ago

You want the car to feel familiar. So they have the accelerator pedal have a similar performance curve to that of a gas car. This way people can sit it it and control it they way they expect it to perform. Makes perfect sense.

btian 7y ago

Ironic coming from a company with tagline "zoom zoom"

fbnlsr 7y ago

It should be noted that Electrek is clearly biased. From wikipedia: > Their positive coverage of Tesla has been criticised by some automotive journalists. Its main authors have disclosed ownership of Tesla stock, substantial profit from referrals to Tesla, and ownership of Tesla cars.

jojo2000 7y ago

Even if their disclosed reasoning seems a little light-headed, the consequences are real at a platform level, less acceleration means : - lower max(amperage) to deliver for battery pack (lowered specs) - longer-lasting battery pack at same energy capacity (strong accelerations consume lots of energy, and wear the battery) - reduced weight (critical parameter for higher km/energy) : - lighter motor (reduced max torque) - lighter brakes (because of lower max speed) - ... Low-tech solutions can sometimes be what people need. Solving the problem "go from point a to point b" in a safe, cost-efficient, and energy-efficient manner, is not a solved problem (yet).

KMnO4 7y ago

In ~2016 I drove a preproduction electric vehicle from a major manufacturer not known for making fast cars. It wasn’t a sports car, and it wasn’t even one of their high end models. But that thing was fast. When I drove the same car later (post production) it was noticeably slower. It seems that they had tuned the power controller to be more conservative. Honestly, the slower tuning is better. Electric motors can give instant power and lurch the car forward with little effort. My foot would become sore driving through the city, as I hovered it above the pedal and made micropresses to maintain speed. The new tuning (and gas engines in general) allow you quite a bit of leeway. Press the pedal twice as far as you should have, and you can slowly release it before the car gets ahead of you. Having a car that’s quick of the starting line is a lot of fun, but make that a mode. Smooth, slow, driving is just more comfortable.

pwellner 7y ago

They should also have made it artificially feel like it's shifting gears!

ryuukk_ 7y ago

oh i see, they do like NVIDIA they underpower their vehicules so they can justify selling "fake higher end" at a much higher price that's illegal