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Could they be using the law as a pretext? Offering a service without an upfront price is shady. If Uber can get away with it, we know the market is not as compe

Could they be using the law as a pretext? Offering a service without an upfront price is shady. If Uber can get away with it, we know the market is not as competitive as we thought it is.

olalonde 7y ago
> Offering a service without an upfront price is shady. One of the many reasons Uber gained market share over taxis. I doubt they're using the law as a pretext.
- traek 7y ago
  This is not at all true. Uber only introduced upfront pricing at the end of 2017. Prior to that users were charged based on time and distance, the same way as taxis.
  - rchaud 7y ago
    Which country/region was that in? I'm a late adopter of Uber (2015) in Canada and I have always seen the fixed rate price when requesting a ride.
jlmorton 7y ago
Is it? There's no upfront pricing in the taxi industry. There is a set fare rate, but the fare is dependent on external conditions.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Many cities have a set rate for airport-to-downtown trips, and you may be able to negotiate one directly with the taxi driver for long or unusual trips. For example: https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-van-service https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-van-... > Taxis at JFK Airport charge a flat fare of $52 for trips between the airport and Manhattan. Taxis impose a $4.50 surcharge during peak hours (4-8 p.m. weekdays, excluding holidays), for a fare of $56.50.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Most people aren’t going to/from the airport.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- telchar 7y ago
  That's one of the reason people hate taxis, and why people jumped to Uber instead. Who's to stop the driver from taking the long route, and how am I supposed to compare options if I don't know how much it will cost? Pull out a pocket calculator and a map?
HeavenFox 7y ago
Uber and Lyft both operated this way in the beginning, and switched to upfront pricing later, presumably after having enough data to make upfront pricing reliable. I still remember the outcry - people say it’s a tactic to bury surge pricing and implement price discrimination. Guess you can’t please everybody :(
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  Yeah - I remember the claims about upfront pricing being bad / illegal etc. I think they did upfront pricing because users preferred it - I certainly did. But you can't do upfront pricing under CA law - the driver has to be able to earn whatever they earn from driving - if they take you on a long route now - they get the extra I think and you are charged the extra.
  - vineyardmike 7y ago
    Well that’s good for the customer /s
  - telchar 7y ago
    Does the law say you can't do upfront pricing? Surely the company could just eat the difference in the situation you raise? To me this seems to be Uber's way of passing on any extra cost and risk to customers rather than risk any of their own skin.
    - privateSFacct 7y ago
      The law prohibits upfront pricing unless the drivers are employees of uber. The law requires you (the rider) to be the customer of the driver. So the pricing / payment between driver and rider need to be linked. If you are a customer of uber transit services (instead of uber ride finding and safety platform) they can offer flat rate prices and eat difference, but the drivers then need to be employees.
  - longerthoughts 7y ago
    >But you can't do upfront pricing under CA law - the driver has to be able to earn whatever they earn from driving I think the two parts of this statement can be decoupled. Couldn't Uber feasibly keep fixed upfront pricing on the customer side but provide variable payouts to drivers to be compliant with the law? They probably wouldn't do this because it exposes them to risk on every ride (i.e. they might undercharge for the ride and have to pay up to the driver anyway) but the law is not directly forcing them to provide a worse experience - they're doing that by passing the risk to customers.
kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
Welcome to the United States where you find out the pricing for a medical service 6 months after receiving the service, then keep finding out about it for another year, random bill upon random bill.
- kortilla 7y ago
  This is how cabs work in many countries.
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
    Presumably the rate chart of the cab is known. It's not a random number that springs on you months after the ride with no real logic other than 'this is how it be'.
    - herval 7y ago
      That’s not what the flexible rate is either? You won’t pay for a ride 6 months after it, you’ll pay per mile, like Taxis
    - gumby 7y ago
      Except the driver has discretion to choose a path and it’s easy to take a longer route when the passenger is not a local. Likewise it’s easy for hospitals in the US to pad their charges arbitrarily (e.g. $50 for a Tylenol/Panadol tablet, a genuine example)
- maerF0x0 7y ago
  Many cities Taxis had upfront pricing. You just had to do the math yourself. it would like something like 2.60 to enter the cab, 2.00 per mile, or 50c per minute thereafter. https://www.seattle.gov/your-rights-as-a-customer/file-a-complaint/taxi-for-hire-and-tnc-complaints/taxi-fares-how-much-does-a-ride-cost https://www.seattle.gov/your-rights-as-a-customer/file-a-com...
- Keverw 7y ago
  Sad thing is, some people even get billed twice for the same service too and might not even be paying attention fully to notice either. Someone I know almost mistakenly paid twice because of a double billing error. Then I seen on a TV commercial, some college has an entire degree on medical coding and billing... Not sure why tech isn't being used to help, seems insane you have to go to college just to learn how to bill people properly and then probably still end up making mistakes.
herval 7y ago
They’ll most likely expand the model everywhere, while still blaming “regulation”. Then push the narrative that it’s better for the drivers. They need to turn a profit any way possible, and this is a good way to skim a couple dollars per ride. Local competitors in a lot of international markets never adopted flat pricing - in fact Uber itself isn’t flat-price in some markets (eg in my region of Brazil, and it’s not because there’s any regulation there). Uber is the new Taxi cartel. So it goes.
- sida 7y ago
  You know Uber started out as this and then switched to upfront pricing right?
  - herval 7y ago
    Yes. They A/B tested and the flat fee model was more popular. The new directive is to increase margins, and the variable model is better at that. I can’t name sources, but it should be pretty evident just based on the new CEO public messages by now?
avs733 7y ago
with Uber at this point, why is anyone assuming they act in good faith?

Could they be using the law as a pretext? Offering a service without an upfront price is shady. If Uber can get away with it, we know the market is not as competitive as we thought it is.

olalonde 7y ago

> Offering a service without an upfront price is shady. One of the many reasons Uber gained market share over taxis. I doubt they're using the law as a pretext.

traek 7y ago
This is not at all true. Uber only introduced upfront pricing at the end of 2017. Prior to that users were charged based on time and distance, the same way as taxis.
- rchaud 7y ago
  Which country/region was that in? I'm a late adopter of Uber (2015) in Canada and I have always seen the fixed rate price when requesting a ride.

jlmorton 7y ago

Is it? There's no upfront pricing in the taxi industry. There is a set fare rate, but the fare is dependent on external conditions.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Many cities have a set rate for airport-to-downtown trips, and you may be able to negotiate one directly with the taxi driver for long or unusual trips. For example: https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-van-service https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-van-... > Taxis at JFK Airport charge a flat fare of $52 for trips between the airport and Manhattan. Taxis impose a $4.50 surcharge during peak hours (4-8 p.m. weekdays, excluding holidays), for a fare of $56.50.
- kortilla 7y ago
  Most people aren’t going to/from the airport.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
telchar 7y ago
That's one of the reason people hate taxis, and why people jumped to Uber instead. Who's to stop the driver from taking the long route, and how am I supposed to compare options if I don't know how much it will cost? Pull out a pocket calculator and a map?

HeavenFox 7y ago

Uber and Lyft both operated this way in the beginning, and switched to upfront pricing later, presumably after having enough data to make upfront pricing reliable. I still remember the outcry - people say it’s a tactic to bury surge pricing and implement price discrimination. Guess you can’t please everybody :(

privateSFacct 7y ago
Yeah - I remember the claims about upfront pricing being bad / illegal etc. I think they did upfront pricing because users preferred it - I certainly did. But you can't do upfront pricing under CA law - the driver has to be able to earn whatever they earn from driving - if they take you on a long route now - they get the extra I think and you are charged the extra.
- vineyardmike 7y ago
  Well that’s good for the customer /s
- telchar 7y ago
  Does the law say you can't do upfront pricing? Surely the company could just eat the difference in the situation you raise? To me this seems to be Uber's way of passing on any extra cost and risk to customers rather than risk any of their own skin.
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    The law prohibits upfront pricing unless the drivers are employees of uber. The law requires you (the rider) to be the customer of the driver. So the pricing / payment between driver and rider need to be linked. If you are a customer of uber transit services (instead of uber ride finding and safety platform) they can offer flat rate prices and eat difference, but the drivers then need to be employees.
- longerthoughts 7y ago
  >But you can't do upfront pricing under CA law - the driver has to be able to earn whatever they earn from driving I think the two parts of this statement can be decoupled. Couldn't Uber feasibly keep fixed upfront pricing on the customer side but provide variable payouts to drivers to be compliant with the law? They probably wouldn't do this because it exposes them to risk on every ride (i.e. they might undercharge for the ride and have to pay up to the driver anyway) but the law is not directly forcing them to provide a worse experience - they're doing that by passing the risk to customers.

kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago

Welcome to the United States where you find out the pricing for a medical service 6 months after receiving the service, then keep finding out about it for another year, random bill upon random bill.

kortilla 7y ago
This is how cabs work in many countries.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 7y ago
  Presumably the rate chart of the cab is known. It's not a random number that springs on you months after the ride with no real logic other than 'this is how it be'.
  - herval 7y ago
    That’s not what the flexible rate is either? You won’t pay for a ride 6 months after it, you’ll pay per mile, like Taxis
  - gumby 7y ago
    Except the driver has discretion to choose a path and it’s easy to take a longer route when the passenger is not a local. Likewise it’s easy for hospitals in the US to pad their charges arbitrarily (e.g. $50 for a Tylenol/Panadol tablet, a genuine example)
maerF0x0 7y ago
Many cities Taxis had upfront pricing. You just had to do the math yourself. it would like something like 2.60 to enter the cab, 2.00 per mile, or 50c per minute thereafter. https://www.seattle.gov/your-rights-as-a-customer/file-a-complaint/taxi-for-hire-and-tnc-complaints/taxi-fares-how-much-does-a-ride-cost https://www.seattle.gov/your-rights-as-a-customer/file-a-com...
Keverw 7y ago
Sad thing is, some people even get billed twice for the same service too and might not even be paying attention fully to notice either. Someone I know almost mistakenly paid twice because of a double billing error. Then I seen on a TV commercial, some college has an entire degree on medical coding and billing... Not sure why tech isn't being used to help, seems insane you have to go to college just to learn how to bill people properly and then probably still end up making mistakes.

herval 7y ago

They’ll most likely expand the model everywhere, while still blaming “regulation”. Then push the narrative that it’s better for the drivers. They need to turn a profit any way possible, and this is a good way to skim a couple dollars per ride. Local competitors in a lot of international markets never adopted flat pricing - in fact Uber itself isn’t flat-price in some markets (eg in my region of Brazil, and it’s not because there’s any regulation there). Uber is the new Taxi cartel. So it goes.

sida 7y ago
You know Uber started out as this and then switched to upfront pricing right?
- herval 7y ago
  Yes. They A/B tested and the flat fee model was more popular. The new directive is to increase margins, and the variable model is better at that. I can’t name sources, but it should be pretty evident just based on the new CEO public messages by now?

avs733 7y ago

with Uber at this point, why is anyone assuming they act in good faith?