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I assume it may not be a popular opinion here, but it would be so much easier if projects like Rust could have a DAO (decentralized autonomous organization) ins

by neiman 7y ago

I assume it may not be a popular opinion here, but it would be so much easier if projects like Rust could have a DAO (decentralized autonomous organization) instead of a foundation, and a blockchain account managed by this DAO instead of a bank account. The main issues I see with this idea are volatility of cryptocurrencies prices, inability of paying with cryptocurrencies in most cases atm, environmental issues regarding the blockchain and the infantry of DAO governing models. But as an abstract idea I believe DAOs will replace foundations at some point in the future, making such discussions much easier.

scient 7y ago
Meanwhile back in the real world...
- neiman 7y ago
  I disagree. There are nowadays "real" projects using a DAO, I'm involved in one of them. Are those projects not real?
  - strictusername 7y ago
    How big is your project and is it on the level of scale of Rust
geofft 7y ago
1. What is the advantage of a DAO in your eyes? (Your comment mostly says that one could be done, not why.) 2. The Rust community is made of people who have been trying very hard to write, essentially, a bug-free compiler and a bug-resistant programming language, and they know it is incredibly unrealistic to be 100% bug-free. How would you convince them that a DAO with its terms specified in code and not in human legal documents would not have even a single exploitable bug?
- neiman 7y ago
  You're right, I should have mentioned the advantages to begin with. It's easier, cheaper and faster to setup a DAO than an international foundation, especially regarding registration, opening bank accounts and international members. Important questions such as "which jurisdiction to register the organization in" or "who manages the bank account" becomes irrelevant in a DAO. It's also cheaper and easier to manage a DAO over time than a traditional foundation. There is no need of payments for bureaucratic stuff, since the protocol is in charge of organizing and executing decisions. I don't belong to those convinced it's possible to write bug-free code, however, not every bug means immediate exploit, while exploits can also happen in legal contracts. The immediate solution is a DAO where access is limited to known legal entities. In case a bug is exploited, you can always fall back on the good old legal system to resolve the conflict. There are other possible solution, but I don't want to turn this comment into a lecture about DAOs. We use a DAO in a project I've been involved with for a long time in the past, Bisq. I'm not sure how we could have managed it otherwise, since we were a small project, with contributors all over the world, most of them not knowing each other personally.
  - pmezard 7y ago
    > It's easier, cheaper and faster to setup a DAO than an international foundation, especially regarding registration, opening bank accounts and international members. Important questions such as "which jurisdiction to register the organization in" or "who manages the bank account" becomes irrelevant in a DAO. I never understood these arguments. People do not live in an abstract space outside existing social and economical structures. If one way or another, this DAO thing turns into an actor paying wages, the related laws will apply in some juridiction. Now, what you might say is these questions become irrelevant for the structure creating the DAO, and are instead left to be solved by those receiving the benefit. It sounds dubious at best.
    - neiman 7y ago
      I didn't meant the DAO to be an actor outside the legal system. The difficulty of answering your remark is that different legal systems probably have different point of views about it. According to what I was told where I live, I'm allowed to organize activities, even such involved payments, with other people without registering an organization. Especially if those other people come from different countries. As long as I'm declaring my full income and pay taxes. Such a thing limits what a DAO can do - for example, it can't sign agreements with regular companies (it's not a legal entity) or it cannot employ people. But as long as you don't do such things, I was told it is allowed. I'm being careful with such statements since I'm not a lawyer. You may see DAOs as a legal alternative for civil agreements, which are really difficult to make for individuals in the international market.
zozbot234 7y ago
The really nice thing about making Rust a DAO is that the legal code can literally be written in Rust ;-P
- neiman 7y ago
  The new version of a compiler compiling itself:-)
- frenchyatwork 7y ago
  This comment should probably have a trigger warning.

by neiman 7y ago

scient 7y ago

Meanwhile back in the real world...

neiman 7y ago
I disagree. There are nowadays "real" projects using a DAO, I'm involved in one of them. Are those projects not real?
- strictusername 7y ago
  How big is your project and is it on the level of scale of Rust

geofft 7y ago

1. What is the advantage of a DAO in your eyes? (Your comment mostly says that one could be done, not why.) 2. The Rust community is made of people who have been trying very hard to write, essentially, a bug-free compiler and a bug-resistant programming language, and they know it is incredibly unrealistic to be 100% bug-free. How would you convince them that a DAO with its terms specified in code and not in human legal documents would not have even a single exploitable bug?

neiman 7y ago
You're right, I should have mentioned the advantages to begin with. It's easier, cheaper and faster to setup a DAO than an international foundation, especially regarding registration, opening bank accounts and international members. Important questions such as "which jurisdiction to register the organization in" or "who manages the bank account" becomes irrelevant in a DAO. It's also cheaper and easier to manage a DAO over time than a traditional foundation. There is no need of payments for bureaucratic stuff, since the protocol is in charge of organizing and executing decisions. I don't belong to those convinced it's possible to write bug-free code, however, not every bug means immediate exploit, while exploits can also happen in legal contracts. The immediate solution is a DAO where access is limited to known legal entities. In case a bug is exploited, you can always fall back on the good old legal system to resolve the conflict. There are other possible solution, but I don't want to turn this comment into a lecture about DAOs. We use a DAO in a project I've been involved with for a long time in the past, Bisq. I'm not sure how we could have managed it otherwise, since we were a small project, with contributors all over the world, most of them not knowing each other personally.
- pmezard 7y ago
  > It's easier, cheaper and faster to setup a DAO than an international foundation, especially regarding registration, opening bank accounts and international members. Important questions such as "which jurisdiction to register the organization in" or "who manages the bank account" becomes irrelevant in a DAO. I never understood these arguments. People do not live in an abstract space outside existing social and economical structures. If one way or another, this DAO thing turns into an actor paying wages, the related laws will apply in some juridiction. Now, what you might say is these questions become irrelevant for the structure creating the DAO, and are instead left to be solved by those receiving the benefit. It sounds dubious at best.
  - neiman 7y ago
    I didn't meant the DAO to be an actor outside the legal system. The difficulty of answering your remark is that different legal systems probably have different point of views about it. According to what I was told where I live, I'm allowed to organize activities, even such involved payments, with other people without registering an organization. Especially if those other people come from different countries. As long as I'm declaring my full income and pay taxes. Such a thing limits what a DAO can do - for example, it can't sign agreements with regular companies (it's not a legal entity) or it cannot employ people. But as long as you don't do such things, I was told it is allowed. I'm being careful with such statements since I'm not a lawyer. You may see DAOs as a legal alternative for civil agreements, which are really difficult to make for individuals in the international market.

zozbot234 7y ago

The really nice thing about making Rust a DAO is that the legal code can literally be written in Rust ;-P

neiman 7y ago
The new version of a compiler compiling itself:-)
frenchyatwork 7y ago
This comment should probably have a trigger warning.