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This is true, but doesn't mean there aren't coordinators, actually skilled hackers who embrace the directionlessness even as they give it direction. It isn't _

This is true, but doesn't mean there aren't coordinators, actually skilled hackers who embrace the directionlessness even as they give it direction. It isn't _just_ foot-soldiers.

pessimizer 16y ago
But the "coordinators" drift in and out, too.
cookiecaper 16y ago
There are no real leaders; they may break off into factions, like those that frequent a certain IRC room, but the group "Anonymous" is a non-entity by any meaningful definition. It's whoever happens to be on 4chan or other, mostly similar message boards, and out of those, whoever is enticed to join a chat room or download LOIC, and out of those, people that actually click the button to send a lot of requests to DDOS (or people that show up to taunt Scientologists, as the case may be). There are lots of people that go there to marshal the forces and most fail, cf. "/b/ is not your personal army". If someone happens to generate a buzz that rings for most of the board's demographic, they can start a chain reaction where a lot of people hit MasterCard at once, and get a bunch of disciples attracted to an IRC room for who knows how long -- it may last a day or a month, there's no way to say definitively. The marshaller then becomes the leader of that group of disciples, but "Anonymous" isn't a group by itself. The most accurate definition for Anonymous is "a subset of users of Xchan". That's not a very good definition, especially if you want to go around and pin DDOS and whatever else on individual people.
- Natsu 16y ago
  > The most accurate definition for Anonymous is "a subset of users of Xchan". That's not a very good definition, especially if you want to go around and pin DDOS and whatever else on individual people. I mentally replace "Anonymous" with "protesters" whenever they're protesting anything. It makes it a lot more clear and it's more accurate. We already have amorphous groups of people who protest various things, and this is, as near as I can tell, the online equivalent.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I would guess that such groups are being manipulated by exceptionally smart people for specific ends, some significant fraction of the time.
    - chc 16y ago
      Aren't we all being manipulated some fraction of the time?
    - bioh42_2 16y ago
      I would guess that such groups are being manipulated by exceptionally smart people for specific ends, some significant fraction of the time. I think that's a tempting theory to have. Explains a lot and is easy to understand, but I think it gives individuals too much credit. I would guess exceptionally smart people drift in and out at random and attempt to use the group for specific ends. I think their success rate is slim and random. By "random" I actually mean the group may go along if it thinks it would be "lulz". Notice I said "may", it also may not - lots of random noise in the hive mind. What this means is that trying to control or predict the actions of the group is a fool's game. At best you may be able to influence them occasionally in some small way, its pure chaos theory.
      - stcredzero 16y ago
        I would guess exceptionally smart people drift in and out at random and attempt to use the group for specific ends. I think their success rate is slim and random. I think that's what they want you to think. It may even be true. It's not a reason to give up on the "smart core group" theory, though. I think it gives individuals too much credit. This is a long running debate. There is a camp that thinks individual personalities have significant effects on History. I'd be willing to believe that Anonymous is entirely emergent, but in that case, there would be a "fossil record" of its evolution. (Great. Now that I've posted that, some smartass Anon is going to create one!) What this means is that trying to control or predict the actions of the group is a fool's game. At best you may be able to influence them occasionally in some small way, its pure chaos theory. There's no good way to guarantee which way a buffalo herd will stampede. Doesn't mean there's zero utility in doing so, or that no one can be held accountable.
DrStalker 16y ago
Skilled technical hackers giving the attacks technical direction, or skilled social hackers who know how to get a bunch of anonymous teenagers to do their bidding?
- dasil003 16y ago
  The combination of those skills is the secret sauce.
  - SwellJoe 16y ago
    That's not what they told me the secret sauce is.
    - Gianteye 16y ago
      Apparently the secret sauce involves a bit of SQL injection.
fleitz 16y ago
Anonymous describes themselves best when they describe a hive. Yes, a hive has a queen but she lasts only as long as the workers feel she is productive. When a hive reaches a certain size it will establish a new hive, it too will have it's own queen. Members of the hive will give off pheromones to signal the other members. Not all will follow, some will, however what's important is that the more pheromones of a certain signal propagate the larger the response. The workers are controlled by themselves to a large degree and the queen is in place with certain ceremonial roles. (laying eggs) The only reason anonymous is a difficult concept to grasp is that from the day we are born we are taught to respect and obey a hierarchy of authority. This authority exists only in the minds of those that believe it. When the last person stops believing it, it will cease to exist.
- orbenn 16y ago
  And from what I hear Boxxy is the queen of /b/ http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4642541/QUEEN-OF-B.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Boxxy http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4642541/QUEEN-OF...

This is true, but doesn't mean there aren't coordinators, actually skilled hackers who embrace the directionlessness even as they give it direction. It isn't _just_ foot-soldiers.

pessimizer 16y ago

But the "coordinators" drift in and out, too.

cookiecaper 16y ago

There are no real leaders; they may break off into factions, like those that frequent a certain IRC room, but the group "Anonymous" is a non-entity by any meaningful definition. It's whoever happens to be on 4chan or other, mostly similar message boards, and out of those, whoever is enticed to join a chat room or download LOIC, and out of those, people that actually click the button to send a lot of requests to DDOS (or people that show up to taunt Scientologists, as the case may be). There are lots of people that go there to marshal the forces and most fail, cf. "/b/ is not your personal army". If someone happens to generate a buzz that rings for most of the board's demographic, they can start a chain reaction where a lot of people hit MasterCard at once, and get a bunch of disciples attracted to an IRC room for who knows how long -- it may last a day or a month, there's no way to say definitively. The marshaller then becomes the leader of that group of disciples, but "Anonymous" isn't a group by itself. The most accurate definition for Anonymous is "a subset of users of Xchan". That's not a very good definition, especially if you want to go around and pin DDOS and whatever else on individual people.

Natsu 16y ago
> The most accurate definition for Anonymous is "a subset of users of Xchan". That's not a very good definition, especially if you want to go around and pin DDOS and whatever else on individual people. I mentally replace "Anonymous" with "protesters" whenever they're protesting anything. It makes it a lot more clear and it's more accurate. We already have amorphous groups of people who protest various things, and this is, as near as I can tell, the online equivalent.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I would guess that such groups are being manipulated by exceptionally smart people for specific ends, some significant fraction of the time.
  - chc 16y ago
    Aren't we all being manipulated some fraction of the time?
  - bioh42_2 16y ago
    I would guess that such groups are being manipulated by exceptionally smart people for specific ends, some significant fraction of the time. I think that's a tempting theory to have. Explains a lot and is easy to understand, but I think it gives individuals too much credit. I would guess exceptionally smart people drift in and out at random and attempt to use the group for specific ends. I think their success rate is slim and random. By "random" I actually mean the group may go along if it thinks it would be "lulz". Notice I said "may", it also may not - lots of random noise in the hive mind. What this means is that trying to control or predict the actions of the group is a fool's game. At best you may be able to influence them occasionally in some small way, its pure chaos theory.
    - stcredzero 16y ago
      I would guess exceptionally smart people drift in and out at random and attempt to use the group for specific ends. I think their success rate is slim and random. I think that's what they want you to think. It may even be true. It's not a reason to give up on the "smart core group" theory, though. I think it gives individuals too much credit. This is a long running debate. There is a camp that thinks individual personalities have significant effects on History. I'd be willing to believe that Anonymous is entirely emergent, but in that case, there would be a "fossil record" of its evolution. (Great. Now that I've posted that, some smartass Anon is going to create one!) What this means is that trying to control or predict the actions of the group is a fool's game. At best you may be able to influence them occasionally in some small way, its pure chaos theory. There's no good way to guarantee which way a buffalo herd will stampede. Doesn't mean there's zero utility in doing so, or that no one can be held accountable.

DrStalker 16y ago

Skilled technical hackers giving the attacks technical direction, or skilled social hackers who know how to get a bunch of anonymous teenagers to do their bidding?

dasil003 16y ago
The combination of those skills is the secret sauce.
- SwellJoe 16y ago
  That's not what they told me the secret sauce is.
  - Gianteye 16y ago
    Apparently the secret sauce involves a bit of SQL injection.

fleitz 16y ago

Anonymous describes themselves best when they describe a hive. Yes, a hive has a queen but she lasts only as long as the workers feel she is productive. When a hive reaches a certain size it will establish a new hive, it too will have it's own queen. Members of the hive will give off pheromones to signal the other members. Not all will follow, some will, however what's important is that the more pheromones of a certain signal propagate the larger the response. The workers are controlled by themselves to a large degree and the queen is in place with certain ceremonial roles. (laying eggs) The only reason anonymous is a difficult concept to grasp is that from the day we are born we are taught to respect and obey a hierarchy of authority. This authority exists only in the minds of those that believe it. When the last person stops believing it, it will cease to exist.

orbenn 16y ago
And from what I hear Boxxy is the queen of /b/ http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4642541/QUEEN-OF-B.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=Boxxy http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4642541/QUEEN-OF...